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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4707
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 Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Susan/DC wrote: | | I come from a large extended family, and I loved it. However, I agree with JMM when the family tells the heroine (and it usually is the heroine rather than the hero) that they know better than she does what she wants and what is good for her. It's not that people aren't sometimes blind to what is apparent to everyone else or don't make boneheaded mistakes, but I don't like it when they treat an adult as a child. I've read some stories with wonderful family and friends, and I've read others where I wanted to hit them upside the head and tell them to leave the heroine alone. If she wants to move to a big city or live out in the wilderness, be a doctor/lawyer/whatever, have zero, one, or ten children, date someone other than the hero (although we know she will end up with him), then for heavens sake let her. To denigrate her choices indicates a lack of respect for her as well as a lack of boundaries as they try to control her, and it's through making choices and living with the outcomes that one learns and grows. Although I must add that I understand and accept this more in an historical when women's lives were far more restricted than in a contemporary. |
Susan, I think there are plenty of controlling families in the romance genre, both big and small, no doubt. In real life of course as well. You're right, that's not fun.
What I'm saying is that I enjoy those big happy extended families in the romance genre where the hero or heroine is accepted with open arms and they enjoy each other's company. Siblings can come and go and have their own issues but when they get their own book I want that happy HEA. I like seeing a hero or heroine that has maybe never had much family suddenly find themselves welcomed into one. I especially love it when the hero has grown up on the streets, or into a foster family and finds himself adopted into a new happy one and enjoys that for the first time in his life. I'm willing to suspend disbelief and go for the blissfully happy, haha. I don't personally feel that I need more discord in order to make it more realistic. Gosh there is so many family fighting romances out there, it's nice to have the opposite.
Have to ask though, if you want the heroine to be able to date someone other than the hero in the book, are you ok with the hero dating someone other than the heroine as well? I ask because it seems to be quite a hot button for many and you surprised me! lol
Linda
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"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner |
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IdlesseOblige
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 9
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Wandering back in to clarify a few points:
It's not that I'm actively seeking unpleasantness in my epilogues. However, my belief in the primary couple having a happy future is not conditional on everyone around them being perfectly happy, but on my belief that whatever is going on, they will face it together (with humour, AK47s, or both, depending on the genre.) That is something that needs to be set up earlier in the story, and if it hasn't been done correctly, a gang of past and future protagonists cooing over how wonderful things will be just inspires a big "Yeah, right."
By "realism doesn't have to be negative", I just meant that positive things can happen in real life, too. By the same token, there are negative elements in stories that can be overdone and unrealistic, and that takes me out of the story just as much as a Mary Sue to the Infinite Power ending will. (Yes, MJ Putney's The Spiral Path, I'm talking about you.)
Oh, and another thing that bugs in some series: The brother/pal/comrade who is really distinctive as a supporting character, but becomes indistinguishable from all the other heroes when he gets his own book. (Especially when he was kind and supportive to a previous heroine, but goes into abusive alpha-jerk mode with his own gal.) |
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4707
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| IdlesseOblige wrote: | Wandering back in to clarify a few points:
It's not that I'm actively seeking unpleasantness in my epilogues. However, my belief in the primary couple having a happy future is not conditional on everyone around them being perfectly happy, but on my belief that whatever is going on, they will face it together (with humour, AK47s, or both, depending on the genre.) That is something that needs to be set up earlier in the story, and if it hasn't been done correctly, a gang of past and future protagonists cooing over how wonderful things will be just inspires a big "Yeah, right."
By "realism doesn't have to be negative", I just meant that positive things can happen in real life, too. By the same token, there are negative elements in stories that can be overdone and unrealistic, and that takes me out of the story just as much as a Mary Sue to the Infinite Power ending will. (Yes, MJ Putney's The Spiral Path, I'm talking about you.)
Oh, and another thing that bugs in some series: The brother/pal/comrade who is really distinctive as a supporting character, but becomes indistinguishable from all the other heroes when he gets his own book. (Especially when he was kind and supportive to a previous heroine, but goes into abusive alpha-jerk mode with his own gal.) |
Gotcha!! Since I originally got into this more detailed discussion after JMM"s post below, this is what I was referring to by responding that I wouldn't prefer more family discord, such as the scenarios suggested, even though they would be a good dose of realism. I'm happy to leave them out of a romance novel and go with the birds twittering instead, haha.
| Quote: | | All have to marry - and they have to marry someone who will: A) adore each and every member of the hero/ine's MASSIVE family (instead of being creeped out by all the forced togetherness), and: B) [b]have NO family of their own - no "I want to spend Christmas with MY family, dammit!" No tension between inlaws who don't like one another or just don't have anything in common - just happy, happy, joy, joy and bluebirds twittering[/b]. |
I agree that sometimes those epilogues are just too much and not needed, sometimes they don't seem to even match the tone of the book. It's like..Oh yeah and they lived happily every after with 10 kids, after a book full of blood and grit, lol
Linda
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"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner |
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Susan/DC
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1598
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Linda in sw va wrote: |
Have to ask though, if you want the heroine to be able to date someone other than the hero in the book, are you ok with the hero dating someone other than the heroine as well? I ask because it seems to be quite a hot button for many and you surprised me! lol
Linda |
I'm not one of those who think that the hero and heroine have to know immediately that it is True Love and not look at anyone else from that moment on. I don't mind if one or both are unsure at first. I know that others want exclusivity from the minute the H/h meet, but I'm not in that camp. I tend to want them to be true to each other once they've been intimate, but even then I've read books where the author makes it work, especially in historical marriages of convenience. So I don't have a hard and fast rule about this. |
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Susan/DC
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1598
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Linda in sw va wrote: |
Have to ask though, if you want the heroine to be able to date someone other than the hero in the book, are you ok with the hero dating someone other than the heroine as well? I ask because it seems to be quite a hot button for many and you surprised me! lol
Linda |
I'm not one of those who think that the hero and heroine have to know immediately that it is True Love and not look at anyone else from that moment on. I don't mind if one or both are unsure at first. I know that others want exclusivity from the minute the H/h meet, but I'm not in that camp. I tend to want them to be true to each other once they've been intimate, but even then I've read books where the author makes it work, especially in historical marriages of convenience. So I don't have a hard and fast rule about this. |
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Susan/DC
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1598
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Linda in sw va wrote: |
Have to ask though, if you want the heroine to be able to date someone other than the hero in the book, are you ok with the hero dating someone other than the heroine as well? I ask because it seems to be quite a hot button for many and you surprised me! lol
Linda |
I'm not one of those who think that the hero and heroine have to know immediately that it is True Love and not look at anyone else from that moment on. I don't mind if one or both are unsure at first. I know that others want exclusivity from the minute the H/h meet, but I'm not in that camp. I tend to want them to be true to each other once they've been intimate, but even then I've read books where the author makes it work, especially in historical marriages of convenience. So I don't have a hard and fast rule about this. |
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4707
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Susan/DC wrote: | | [I'm not one of those who think that the hero and heroine have to know immediately that it is True Love and not look at anyone else from that moment on. I don't mind if one or both are unsure at first. I know that others want exclusivity from the minute the H/h meet, but I'm not in that camp. I tend to want them to be true to each other once they've been intimate, but even then I've read books where the author makes it work, especially in historical marriages of convenience. So I don't have a hard and fast rule about this. |
Thanks for responding Susan! I pretty much agree with you, though I don't think we are in the majority, haha.
Linda
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"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner |
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tuga
Joined: 09 Feb 2011
Posts: 64
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| JudyZ6666 wrote: | | Islandgirl2 wrote: | I actually love this theme. lol I just feel like it's a cool way to introduce other characters and if you take to them a little in the introduction it does draw you in to read the next one by the author. I think it's really smart. If you didn't like the first chances are you won't like the others. But most of the time I find that their third or fourth or later books in the trilogy/series gets better with time with the other couples.
And I also like that we get to see the journey of family/friends all find love as you would hope in real life it happens for all your friends and family when they come of age. I have a huge family and it's always something to see a certain generation always go through their marriages and having children around the same time. So it not so farfetched. |
I am, truly, addicted to this type of series. I don't know why. I actually get disappointed if previous characters DON'T show up when I expect them to.
Sorry. 
Judy |
Me too Judy. I always like to see or know about previous characters in the latest book of a series. I've read a review recently of a last book in a series where this happened and the reviewer said she would dismiss the fact every couple was there in the last chapter...I actually loved it!
My issue with series is when they go too far and we get too little...I hate it when something is about to happen and the author writes and writes and nothing happens and we have to wait years to know more and it comes to a point I no longer know what's all about.
**** |
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willaful
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 1468
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Linda in sw va wrote: |
I agree that sometimes those epilogues are just too much and not needed, sometimes they don't seem to even match the tone of the book. It's like..Oh yeah and they lived happily every after with 10 kids, after a book full of blood and grit, lol |
I know, it's sometimes really funny how the "normal" home and kids template is forced on the couple that was living such weird, violent lives!
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"I say, don't read the classics -- try to discover your own classics; every life has its own." -- Rudolf Flesch, _How to Make Sense_ |
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veasleyd1
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 2064
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:02 am Post subject: |
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One of the cleverest uses of a follow-up (it wasn't an epilogue) that I've seen was by Stephanie Laurens. In one of her later-set novels (Barnaby Adair) there's a dinner party with the young couple persuading a philanthropist to back a Good and Worthy Cause.
In the course of the dinner, one of the guests mentions that they will be in town the next season to launch their oldest daughter, and that since they have been spending more time in the country, her husband, named only as "Paignton," has been taking his duties as a magistrate very seriously.
The scene requires no further information and the novel moves on. But to the person who has read all her series, the husband is Viscount Paignton from a different series set during the Napoleonic Wars and the wife is his heroine. I thought it was done very cleverly. |
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Nana
Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 891
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| veasleyd1 wrote: | One of the cleverest uses of a follow-up (it wasn't an epilogue) that I've seen was by Stephanie Laurens. In one of her later-set novels (Barnaby Adair) there's a dinner party with the young couple persuading a philanthropist to back a Good and Worthy Cause.
In the course of the dinner, one of the guests mentions that they will be in town the next season to launch their oldest daughter, and that since they have been spending more time in the country, her husband, named only as "Paignton," has been taking his duties as a magistrate very seriously.
The scene requires no further information and the novel moves on. But to the person who has read all her series, the husband is Viscount Paignton from a different series set during the Napoleonic Wars and the wife is his heroine. I thought it was done very cleverly. |
Carla Kelly does something similar in One Good Turn. The heroine tries to find work at a mill, which we discover is owned by the hero of a previous story. The scene fits organically into the book and if you hadn't read the other book, you wouldn't have known it was an inside reference. |
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JMM
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 492
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| willaful wrote: | | Linda in sw va wrote: |
I agree that sometimes those epilogues are just too much and not needed, sometimes they don't seem to even match the tone of the book. It's like..Oh yeah and they lived happily every after with 10 kids, after a book full of blood and grit, lol |
I know, it's sometimes really funny how the "normal" home and kids template is forced on the couple that was living such weird, violent lives! |
Exactly! I just don't buy some of the characters doing a 180 degree turn around from Alpha businessperson/spy/con artist/etc to settling down in Mayberry with 2.5 kids, 2 dogs, 3 cats and a hamster. |
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veasleyd1
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 2064
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Nana wrote: | | Carla Kelly does something similar in One Good Turn. The heroine tries to find work at a mill, which we discover is owned by the hero of a previous story. The scene fits organically into the book and if you hadn't read the other book, you wouldn't have known it was an inside reference. |
Thanks. I missed that. I'll have to check it out. |
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Mark
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 1241
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Brief connections to other works are sometimes called "Easter eggs". Several years ago someone on these boards liked to collect them.
A Diane Farr novel has characters attend the ball in Heyer's Frederica.
JAK/AQ/JC has several one-line Easter eggs in various books:
Affair mentions an item made by the hero of Mistress.
Deep Waters mentions tea from a shop in Absolutely, Positively.
Don’t Look Back and Sharp Edges both mention a Hades Cup and Connoisseurs’ Club.
I'm sure there are others I can't recall or never noticed. |
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desiderata
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 226
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:57 am Post subject: |
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"We're such a CLOSE family, we do EVERYTHING together!" can end up being "20 relatives in the hospital room fighting over 'I want to hold the baby' while mother is exhausted and in tears".
Well, yes, in real life. In romanceland, the heroine loves the big, happy, loving, supportive family she never had and this doesn't happen. Just like in romance land the passion doesn't cool, and work and bills and housekeeping don't drain their energy away from each other and they stay hotly in love for always.
I like series, for the most part. Some seem forced, but if a series is well done, I enjoy it. I also like epilogues showing the h/h and their children happy into the future. I'm big on family, and to me it's natural that a deep, passionate love is reflected in new life. |
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