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Nana
Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 892
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 Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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I also loved your story, Linda.
My issue with heroines in pursuit is that culturally, especially in historicals, I have expectations that men will do the pursuing; therefore, if the hero is not pursuing the heroine, I expect that he is not interested and will reject her. Is this true? No, and in real life, these stereotypes probably result in many women ending up single for lack of nerve (not me, fortunately... my husband was quite an effective pursuer!)
Since I'm so shy, it's part of the fantasy for me to have the man risk rejection rather than me. That degree of confidence also makes the hero sexy. I'm less attracted to a passive man.
That being said, one of my favorite lines in literature is from Longfellow's Courtship of Miles Standish, where John has been courting Priscilla on behalf of his friend Miles, and she finally looks at him and says "Why don't you speak for yourself, John?" |
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Nana wrote: | I also loved your story, Linda.
My issue with heroines in pursuit is that culturally, especially in historicals, I have expectations that men will do the pursuing; therefore, if the hero is not pursuing the heroine, I expect that he is not interested and will reject her. Is this true? No, and in real life, these stereotypes probably result in many women ending up single for lack of nerve (not me, fortunately... my husband was quite an effective pursuer!)
Since I'm so shy, it's part of the fantasy for me to have the man risk rejection rather than me. That degree of confidence also makes the hero sexy. I'm less attracted to a passive man.
That being said, one of my favorite lines in literature is from Longfellow's Courtship of Miles Standish, where John has been courting Priscilla on behalf of his friend Miles, and she finally looks at him and says "Why don't you speak for yourself, John?" |
Thank you Nana! I think girls that are waiting for the guy to make the first move could be missing out on some great ones, based on my own experience, if what they want is a long term relationship. My husband is pretty strong willed (more so than me actually) and definitely not a coward, he's jumped out of airplanes and repeled down buildings, gone into war, gone after and arrested violent or drugged up criminals that I would run from. So in actuality he is far more brave than I am, was just shy around me when we first met. Before him I had met my share of ultra confident guys that turned out not to make great boyfriends, he was a refreshing change.
I don't read many historicals but I did love The Serpent Prince in which the heroine decided she wanted the hero and changed her life to go after him. There was also a Johanna Lindsey hero and heroine match where the heroine went after the hero, I think her name was Amy and I can't remember the book now as it's been years but I liked that aspect.
ETA: I should say that I didn't puruse my hubby after that and he didn't really purse me, we'd make plans for the next day during the current one and no one played hard to get or had to be 'convinced'. We just knew.
Linda
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Tee
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 4052
Location: Detroit Metro
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| I wanted to say, too, Linda, that I thought that to be a very cute and touching scene. I can just imagine how someone comfortable with all the risks your husband has had to take in his line of work being uncomfortable with a "courting" maneuver. Thanks for sharing. |
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Tee wrote: | | I wanted to say, too, Linda, that I thought that to be a very cute and touching scene. I can just imagine how someone comfortable with all the risks your husband has had to take in his line of work being uncomfortable with a "courting" maneuver. Thanks for sharing. |
Thanks Tee! Kinda empowering at the time to see that I made him nervous! LOL It definitely made me feel more confident and that was a nice change. 
Linda
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"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner |
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chris booklover
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 281
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Nana wrote: | I also loved your story, Linda.
My issue with heroines in pursuit is that culturally, especially in historicals, I have expectations that men will do the pursuing; therefore, if the hero is not pursuing the heroine, I expect that he is not interested and will reject her. Is this true? No, and in real life, these stereotypes probably result in many women ending up single for lack of nerve (not me, fortunately... my husband was quite an effective pursuer!)
Since I'm so shy, it's part of the fantasy for me to have the man risk rejection rather than me. That degree of confidence also makes the hero sexy. I'm less attracted to a passive man.
That being said, one of my favorite lines in literature is from Longfellow's Courtship of Miles Standish, where John has been courting Priscilla on behalf of his friend Miles, and she finally looks at him and says "Why don't you speak for yourself, John?" |
There's nothing wrong with the man taking the initiative. This is, for historical and cultural reasons, what we should expect to see in the vast majority of cases. The issues with the hero-in-pursuit fantasy are that (a) the heroine all too often walks away from the relationship for no good reason; and (b) the hero continues to pursue her no matter how many times he has been rejected.
A number of posts in various forums have called for more courtship in romance novels. This is all well and good, provided that courtship is understood to be a dynamic and mutually supportive process. It's not just a matter of the hero pursuing the heroine - he has to receive some positive feedback (indicators of interest, or IOI's as they are sometimes known) in order to continue. Without such positive feedback a man with romantic or sexual options (which most romance novel heroes, who are generally described as attractive, wealthy and powerful men, should be expected to have) will look elsewhere.
Apart from anything else, an HEA appears to be much less convincing if there is a significant disparity between the leads in terms of emotional investment in and commitment to the relationship. |
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Nana
Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 892
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| chris booklover wrote: | (b) the hero continues to pursue her no matter how many times he has been rejected.
A number of posts in various forums have called for more courtship in romance novels. This is all well and good, provided that courtship is understood to be a dynamic and mutually supportive process. It's not just a matter of the hero pursuing the heroine - he has to receive some positive feedback |
Valid point. You bring to mind a number of books which just make me shake my head and wonder, "What does he see in this b*tch?"
Also, at least some form of perceptible response from the heroine helps differentiate a hero from a stalker. |
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4707
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| chris booklover wrote: | | [This is all well and good, provided that courtship is understood to be a dynamic and mutually supportive process. . |
I love this line, agree completely! I went through a stage where all I would read was romantic suspense because I wanted the hero and heroine working together to fight a conflict, rather than fighting against each other. Still not a guarantee you will have them mutually responsive though but the chances were greater, lol
Linda
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"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner |
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xina
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6628
Location: minneapolis
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:55 am Post subject: |
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I just read your story Linda...ah, very cute.
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chris booklover
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 281
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Linda in sw va wrote: | | chris booklover wrote: | | [This is all well and good, provided that courtship is understood to be a dynamic and mutually supportive process. . |
I love this line, agree completely! I went through a stage where all I would read was romantic suspense because I wanted the hero and heroine working together to fight a conflict, rather than fighting against each other. Still not a guarantee you will have them mutually responsive though but the chances were greater, lol
Linda |
I once read a guide on how to write romance novels in which the author stated that you can never have too much conflict between the hero and heroine. This is completely wrong IMO, partly because some conflicts, such as whether or not to have children, can never be resolved satisfactorily, but also because too much conflict makes it difficult to believe in the HEA. Few authors (Sherry Thomas is one conspicuous example) have the ability to portray high-intensity conflict in a relationship AND maintain the reader's sympathy with both the hero and heroine AND make you believe in the resolution of that conflict AND depict a plausible HEA.
I agree with you about the appeal of (some) romantic suspense. Linda Howard, Jayne Ann Krentz, Lisa Marie Rice, Sandra Brown, Fiona Brand and Christy Reece often write books about a hero and heroine cooperating against the bad guys, without the artificially generated conflicts that some authors find it necessary to introduce. For me at least this makes for a much more appealing story. |
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Islandgirl2
Joined: 14 Nov 2010
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ChrisReader wrote: | Yulie said | Quote: | I also couldn't stand the hero of Anne Stuart's Ruthless, but the heroine was no prize, either, so I figure they deserved each other.
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See I liked Ruthless and Reckless but I felt EXACTLY that way about Breathless. The hero was IMHO a homicidal nut job and the heroine a masochistic moron.
My all time #1 of not wanting the heroine and "hero" to get together is "Little Women." I know a lot of people disagree but I firmly believe Jo deserved better than Professor Bhaer- namely Laurie. |
I have to honestly say that I thought I was the only one that didn't like Professor Bhaer and Jo together. I just thought it boring and uninteresting and didn't see the match in who I consider fiesty Jo with this man. Didn't appeal and I was disappointed in that turn of events.
If I usually don't like the couple the author is pushing at me I tend to drop the reading all together and not complete because I know where it's going and I'm pretty much done. Happened to me when I followed the series of Suzanne Brockman and she later in the series started mixing couples and pairing up others I just thought nahhh don't see it can't continue.
Also one with Georgette Heyer The Convenient Marriage wasn't fond of Horatia and was hoping she wasn't the heroine of the book for Earl of Rule. Thought the sister that thought him detestible and decided she'd never marry would have been a more interesting choice.
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IdlesseOblige
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 9
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| More often than I care to remember, just because I didn't like one or the other (or both) characters. But the one that really broke my heart was Patricia Veryan's The Dedicated Villain. A couple of books into the Golden Chronicles, I started betting with myself that Roland would be the hero of the last book, and was so looking forward to it. Unfortunately, he and Fiona just didn't work for me; she seemed too young and sweet, more of a prize he was rewarded with for reforming than a solid character in her own right. (Admittedly, she was disadvantaged by not having a six-book arc of her own, and by the fact that Veryan's heroines tended to be less interesting than the heroes.) I'd rather have seen him demonstrate his redeemed character by getting together with some woman he'd betrayed in the past and making things right with her. |
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Islandgirl2
Joined: 14 Nov 2010
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| IdlesseOblige wrote: | | More often than I care to remember, just because I didn't like one or the other (or both) characters. But the one that really broke my heart was Patricia Veryan's The Dedicated Villain. A couple of books into the Golden Chronicles, I started betting with myself that Roland would be the hero of the last book, and was so looking forward to it. Unfortunately, he and Fiona just didn't work for me; she seemed too young and sweet, more of a prize he was rewarded with for reforming than a solid character in her own right. (Admittedly, she was disadvantaged by not having a six-book arc of her own, and by the fact that Veryan's heroines tended to be less interesting than the heroes.) I'd rather have seen him demonstrate his redeemed character by getting together with some woman he'd betrayed in the past and making things right with her. |
Awww you just broke my heart I loved them. lol just kidding. But I thought the redeeming was well done in all the torture he withstood in helping the people. I kind of liked that it wasn't demonstrated through a woman but more his duty to do what's right. And I thought it sweet that Fiona was the payoff for this one time villain.
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IdlesseOblige
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 9
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Islandgirl2 wrote:
| Quote: | | Awww you just broke my heart I loved them. lol just kidding. But I thought the redeeming was well done in all the torture he withstood in helping the people. I kind of liked that it wasn't demonstrated through a woman but more his duty to do what's right. And I thought it sweet that Fiona was the payoff for this one time villain. |
Sorry, Islandgirl2! I really, really wanted to like it. When I wasn't happy at the end, I had to work a bit to figure out what didn't sit right with me. I did like the self-sacrifice aspect, but would've preferred his heroine to be someone who had first-hand knowledge of what he'd been like before. (Or a reformed villainess making reparations of her own, but they don't usually get to be romance heroines.)[/b] |
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Nana
Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 892
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| IdlesseOblige wrote: | | Unfortunately, he and Fiona just didn't work for me; she seemed too young and sweet, more of a prize he was rewarded with for reforming than a solid character in her own right.... I'd rather have seen him demonstrate his redeemed character by getting together with some woman he'd betrayed in the past and making things right with her. |
Replace the name "Fiona" with "Philippa" and you'd have my reaction to the ending of the Lymond Chronicles. Although I don't think Lymond did all that much "reforming," which in my opinion just exacerbated the feeling that the heroine was massively out of her depth with him. |
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Islandgirl2
Joined: 14 Nov 2010
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| IdlesseOblige wrote: | Islandgirl2 wrote:
| Quote: | | Awww you just broke my heart I loved them. lol just kidding. But I thought the redeeming was well done in all the torture he withstood in helping the people. I kind of liked that it wasn't demonstrated through a woman but more his duty to do what's right. And I thought it sweet that Fiona was the payoff for this one time villain. |
Sorry, Islandgirl2! I really, really wanted to like it. When I wasn't happy at the end, I had to work a bit to figure out what didn't sit right with me. I did like the self-sacrifice aspect, but would've preferred his heroine to be someone who had first-hand knowledge of what he'd been like before. (Or a reformed villainess making reparations of her own, but they don't usually get to be romance heroines.)[/b] |
Actually I hear you. I think I wrote a post months ago about wanting a bad girl with the bad guy and both getting reformed through their love. I find it a bit tiresome that the rakes/reformed villains get their redeeming quality by a pure angel. I get the contrast the author is looking for how this abigail shows our bad boy the way...but it's become tiresome and once in a while I wonder what would happen if bad boy and bad girl both had to reform with each other.
But I agree that it is rare to make the villainess go through the process of being redeemed. They usually end up in a mental institute/dead/or in misery as society finds them out for the evil person they are...
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