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Cora
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 1088
Location: Bremen, Germany
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 Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Elizabeth Rolls wrote: | Nor is Rapunzel a missing Princess in the original tale. Her parents annoy the witch because the pregnant wife gets a craving for the greens in the witch's garden. At least that's how I remember the version I had as a child. I don't remember the sex  and the twins, but I recall the prince being blinded and the miracle cure after wandering in the desert.
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Corn salad/lamb's lettuce is actually called "Rapunzel" in some parts of Germany, so that's where the name comes from.
I remember the twins and the blinded prince as well. Interestingly enough, the fact that Rapunzel and the prince had premarital sex never bothered me or struck me as strange as a child. Besides, Rapunzel is not the only fairytale character to get pregnant. The miller's daughter in Rumpelstiltzkin and the sister in The Seven Wild Swans get pregnant as well. Though both of them were married at that point.
But then there is a school of thought that interprets a lot of fairytales as being really all about sex, e.g. Sleeping Beauty pricking her finger on the spindle and bleeding symbolizes a teen girl's first menstruation, while the extended sleep symbolizes the time between a girl's first period and her first sex, which is symbolized by the Prince's kiss. As for Little Red Riding Hood, that one is kind of obvious, isn't it?
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JamiSings
Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Cora wrote: | I remember the twins and the blinded prince as well. Interestingly enough, the fact that Rapunzel and the prince had premarital sex never bothered me or struck me as strange as a child. Besides, Rapunzel is not the only fairytale character to get pregnant. The miller's daughter in Rumpelstiltzkin and the sister in The Seven Wild Swans get pregnant as well. Though both of them were married at that point.
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It's not the pregnancy but the premarital sex that shocked me. As a child I was read edited versions where they just hold hands and kiss, no pregnancy. Some versions didn't even have the blinding. More like the prince shoving the witch out of the tower.
I was raised with "you don't have sex before marriage" for one thing. Even though I broke that rule. (Wish I hadn't. Long story.) Plus in fairy tales that had pregnancy the heroine was always married BEFORE getting pregnant. Pregnancy before marriage was frowned on by my parents. So when I read a more original version with the pregnancy and all that - even though I was an adult - I was shocked that "an innocent children's story" would have premarital sex.
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Susan/DC
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1598
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| JamiSings wrote: | | Elizabeth Rolls wrote: | | Nor is Rapunzel a missing Princess in the original tale. Her parents annoy the witch because the pregnant wife gets a craving for the greens in the witch's garden. At least that's how I remember the version I had as a child. I don't remember the sex and the twins, but I recall the prince being blinded and the miracle cure after wandering in the desert. |
Yep. That's why she was called Rapunzel, after the greens in the witch's garden. |
Yes, the greens were rampion, or ramps. Evidently Rapunzel is the name for a variety of rampion. |
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Lillian Sulivan
Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Your most memorable (or even influential) fairytale... |
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| Tee wrote: | | ...Mine is Cinderella... |
I wonder how many times I asked to hear and later read "Mufaro's Beautiful Daughters"? It's a Cinderella-esque theme from sub-Saharan Africa, where a kind, compassionate girl gets her prince (and - score! - vain and mean-spirited sister winds up her servant).
Best,
Lilly
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Tee
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 4051
Location: Detroit Metro
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Seeing in print that Cinderella is my favorite, I can't help but realize how many fairytales I've not read or even been aware of out there. This thread has been so enlightening. Even though many of us have been exposed primarily to the lighter ones as children, there is a whole different world where these tales exist and existed and some of them sound very complex. I know now they were never meant to be taken lightly. |
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Cora
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 1088
Location: Bremen, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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For anybody intrigued by Arabela a.k.a. The Fairytale Bride, here is a YouTube clip.
Unfortunately, it's in Czech without subtitles, but it gives a good impression of what the show is like. This clip features an alternate version of Sleeping Beauty with a not-so-charming prince and Princess Xenia, the villainous sister of heroine Arabela, resorting to blackmail to nab herself a princely husband.
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Jean Wan AAR
Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 383
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Susan/DC wrote: | | JamiSings wrote: | | Elizabeth Rolls wrote: | | Nor is Rapunzel a missing Princess in the original tale. Her parents annoy the witch because the pregnant wife gets a craving for the greens in the witch's garden. At least that's how I remember the version I had as a child. I don't remember the sex and the twins, but I recall the prince being blinded and the miracle cure after wandering in the desert. |
Yep. That's why she was called Rapunzel, after the greens in the witch's garden. |
Yes, the greens were rampion, or ramps. Evidently Rapunzel is the name for a variety of rampion. |
Which, of course, reminds me of Sondheim's "Into the Woods", and the Witch's brilliant rap/monologue/chant about Rapunzel's parents and how she came to possess Rapunzel:
"In the past, when your mother was with child, she developed
an unusual appetite. She took one look at my beautiful garden
and told your father that what she wanted more than
anything in the world was
Greens, greens and nothing but greens:
Parsley, peppers, cabbages and celery,
Asparagus and watercress and
Fiddleferns and lettuce-!
He said, "All right,"
But it wasn't, quite,
'Cause I caught him in the autumn
In my garden one night!
He was robbing me,
Raping me,
Rooting through my rutabaga,
Raiding my arugula and
Ripping up my rampion
(My champion! My favorite!)-
I should have laid a spell on him
Right there,
Could have changed him into stone
Or a dog or a chair...
But I let him have the rampion-
I'd lots to spare.
In return, however,
I said, "Fair is fair:
You can let me have the baby
That your wife will bear.
And we'll call it square."
And speaking of the premarital sex bit, I'd read the original Grimm version somewhere quite early. But it never occurred to me, in my extreme innocence, that Rapunzel had come by those children by having sex with the prince. So she's "with child"? Yeah, okay, she's now walking around "with a child." The twins had just, you know, appeared. Like magic.
Sigh. Those were the days...
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JamiSings
Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: Your most memorable (or even influential) fairytale... |
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| Lillian Sulivan wrote: | | Tee wrote: | | ...Mine is Cinderella... |
I wonder how many times I asked to hear and later read "Mufaro's Beautiful Daughters"? It's a Cinderella-esque theme from sub-Saharan Africa, where a kind, compassionate girl gets her prince (and - score! - vain and mean-spirited sister winds up her servant).
Best,
Lilly |
I've read that one. Isn't that the one where a hippo or a crocodile is the fairy godmother? I know the title and know I've read it but I've also read other versions set in Africa and in one version there was an animal taking the place of the fairy godmother. In another it was a magic snake.
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Lillian Sulivan
Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:26 am Post subject: Re: Your most memorable (or even influential) fairytale... |
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| JamiSings wrote: | | I know the title and know I've read it but I've also read other versions set in Africa and in one version there was an animal taking the place of the fairy godmother. In another it was a magic snake. |
In "Mufaro", the prince can transform himself into a snake, hungry child, old woman/old man, multi-headed monster, etc., surreptitiously testing the girls trying out for princess.
This does raise some interesting possibilities for their wedding night.
Best,
Lilly
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JamiSings
Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:13 am Post subject: Re: Your most memorable (or even influential) fairytale... |
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| Lillian Sulivan wrote: | | JamiSings wrote: | | I know the title and know I've read it but I've also read other versions set in Africa and in one version there was an animal taking the place of the fairy godmother. In another it was a magic snake. |
In "Mufaro", the prince can transform himself into a snake, hungry child, old woman/old man, multi-headed monster, etc., surreptitiously testing the girls trying out for princess.
This does raise some interesting possibilities for their wedding night.
Best,
Lilly |
Okay, it must be another African Cinderella type tale I'm thinking of. I knew I read Mufaro, but I've also read one with a hippo for the godmother and another with a crocodile.
I also remember a Caribbean one that actually involved zombies. Voodoo created zombies, of course, not Hollywood ones.
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Ash
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Cora wrote: |
But then there is a school of thought that interprets a lot of fairytales as being really all about sex, e.g. Sleeping Beauty pricking her finger on the spindle and bleeding symbolizes a teen girl's first menstruation, while the extended sleep symbolizes the time between a girl's first period and her first sex, which is symbolized by the Prince's kiss. |
im all for believing that many of these fairy tales have sexual undertones etc but this one seems a little too contrived....or maybe it is just my inner child rebelling against the idea  |
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JamiSings
Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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The more fairy tales we talk about, the more I remember I really like.
There's one called The Faun And The Woodcutter's Daughter. It's about, obviously, a woodcutter's daughter who as a child meets a faun. They meet again many times but every time she leaves him she forgets about him. It's only in his presence she remembers their time together. They grow up together in this manner.
Her father, as usual in fairy tales, is dead, and she lives with her stepmother who's actually kind and loving. So when she grows up beautiful and catches the eye of a rich merchant's son she agrees to marry him to support her stepmother. However, before this she told the faun she wished she could remember him when she left. So he weaves a ring out of his own hair and places it on her wedding ring finger. So at the wedding the merchant's son can't get the ring on because of the faun's ring.
The WD suddenly remembers her faun and runs out of the church, finding him, they run off together and are only seen briefly by farmers as they run off together into the woods. Then, neither are ever seen again.
There's also another I don't care for because a lazy girl is rewarded. Her mom is screaming at her/hitting her one day for being so lazy when the queen comes by. Asked why the girl is being punished, the mom lies and says it's because she can't get her daughter to stop spinning wool. So the queen takes the girl away with her and locks her up in a room full of wool. Of course the lazy girl can't spin. Three fairies, each with a different disfigurement appear, and say if she'll invite them to her wedding and treat them as beloved aunts they'll spin the wool for her. She agrees and they do.
The queen is so impressed she gives the girl, who's beautiful, BTW, to the prince as a bride. The bride holds up her end of the bargin and when the prince questions each "aunt" about her disfigurement they claim it's from some aspect of spinning wool. So the prince forbids his beautiful, lazy bride from ever spinning again and they all live happily and lazily ever after.
Ug! Laziness should not be rewarded!
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Eggletina
Joined: 06 Jul 2010
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, Jami. Wish I had your memory for details. I struggle to remember what I've read more than two or three weeks ago. The older I get, the more I discover just how unreliable my memory is. 
This thread reminds me of one of my favorite books ever -- Padraic Colum's The King of Ireland's Son, which is actually several stories within stories, all with fairy tale motifs. I think many of you will recognize some of the stories, though the way Colum weaves them together makes it truly something special and unique. It's in the public domain, so available for free. I love it so much, I also own a print edition. It's a DIK on my myths and legends bookshelf. |
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JamiSings
Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 94
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Eggletina wrote: | Wow, Jami. Wish I had your memory for details. I struggle to remember what I've read more than two or three weeks ago. The older I get, the more I discover just how unreliable my memory is.
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I work in a public library and back when I was a page when there wasn't a lot to shelve I'd hide in the shorting area and read, and often reread certain fairy tales. And some just stick with me because I disliked the hero or heroine so dang much.
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Mark
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 1241
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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If we are including fictional adaptations of fairytale themes, I strongly recommend the 500 Kingdoms series by Mercedes Lackey.
The Fairy Godmother
One Good Knight
Fortune’s Fool
The Snow Queen
The Sleeping Beauty
(see Harvest Moon anthology)
Beauty And The Werewolf
The Tradition is a magical force that pushes people to follow fairytale patterns, and the stories are about the tales people live and various ways to work around the Tradition. |
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