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The Lymond Chronicles
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Kass



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I ask a question? Why is he called Lymond when it's made very clear in the first book that he no longer holds the property of Lymond? Why isn't he just called by his actual name?
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Tracy Grant



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kass wrote:
Can I ask a question? Why is he called Lymond when it's made very clear in the first book that he no longer holds the property of Lymond? Why isn't he just called by his actual name?


There's a point made in the books that he tends to hold himself aloof and therefore using his given name is a sign of an intimacy few people share with him (so that few dare use it). Dunnett does some fascinating things with how people address him in the books. He's "Lymond" to most people, "Mr. Crawford" to some (such as the young Philippa), other titles he acquires over the course oft he series to other people. When someone calls him "Francis" (or when he signs himself "Francis" in a letter, as he does a couple of times), it's a sign of particular intimacy/vulnerability.

Cheers,
Tracy
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Jo Beverley



Joined: 20 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracy Grant wrote:
My friend and fellow writer Penny Williamson read the books when all had been published except "Checkmate". She says the wait was indeed interminable. I agree, "Ringed Castle" leaves the possiblities for the ending very much up in the air.

Cheers,
Tracy
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Me, too. That was forever, especially as the real romance had just got underway.

I much prefer the Lymond books to the Niccolo ones. I like my romance rich and over the top.

Jo :)
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Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anu wrote:
Jennifer,

I think mentioning the role of P is spoiler territory, not mentioning her at all, but that SPOILER she's the heroine. We don't get a sense of that until later books.

Just my opinion.[/code]


I agree that it's spoiler territory. I never knew who would be Lymond's heroine until DD revealed it and I was a wonderful surprise. I think it's meant to be a surprise.

I actually think AAR is doing a disservice with their review of the books, as the reviewer mentions her by name, therefore ruining any surprise. If you want to be spoiled, that's one thing. You can request a spoiler heads up. But I don't think it should be mentioned openly in the review, the surprise of who becomes his heroine is/was an integral part of the story.

IMHO of course! :)

Linda
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Gail K.



Joined: 19 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda in sw va wrote:
anu wrote:
Jennifer,

I think mentioning the role of P is spoiler territory, not mentioning her at all, but that SPOILER she's the heroine. We don't get a sense of that until later books.

Just my opinion.[/code]


I agree that it's spoiler territory. I never knew who would be Lymond's heroine until DD revealed it and I was a wonderful surprise. I think it's meant to be a surprise.

I actually think AAR is doing a disservice with their review of the books, as the reviewer mentions her by name, therefore ruining any surprise. If you want to be spoiled, that's one thing. You can request a spoiler heads up. But I don't think it should be mentioned openly in the review, the surprise of who becomes his heroine is/was an integral part of the story.

IMHO of course! :)

Linda


I agree it's spoiler territory, too, but you know what? Knowing about the heroine spurred me on to finish the series. After the first book, I kept thinking to myself wow, Philippa sure is a hate-filled child...how the heck is Dunnett going to pull this off?

-Gail
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Kass



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracy Grant wrote:
There's a point made in the books that he tends to hold himself aloof and therefore using his given name is a sign of an intimacy few people share with him (so that few dare use it). Dunnett does some fascinating things with how people address him in the books. He's "Lymond" to most people, "Mr. Crawford" to some (such as the young Philippa), other titles he acquires over the course oft he series to other people. When someone calls him "Francis" (or when he signs himself "Francis" in a letter, as he does a couple of times), it's a sign of particular intimacy/vulnerability.

Cheers,
Tracy
http://www.tracygrant.org

Hm. It really irritated me because to me, it's like referring to me as "Chicago Girl" when I've only been to Chicago a few times and don't much like the city. But I suppose Dunnett couldn't have the others refer to him as Rat Bastard, could she? Smile
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Jo Beverley



Joined: 20 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kass wrote:

Hm. It really irritated me because to me, it's like referring to me as "Chicago Girl" when I've only been to Chicago a few times and don't much like the city. But I suppose Dunnett couldn't have the others refer to him as Rat Bastard, could she? :)


I'm sure many of them would have been delighted. :)

IIRC, Lymond was his property except for the brief time when he was outlawed, so it wasn't strange to use that term for him. I don't know much about Scottish etiquette, but calling people by their title wasn't peculiar. In fact, what he's called throughout the books, and by whom, is interesting -- including the equivalent of Rat Bastard,

Jo :)
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Kass



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't know much about Scottish etiquette, but calling people by their title wasn't peculiar.

Ah, but not when it's a title they don't hold, right?

Kass, Mistress of Cockatiels
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Linda in sw va



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: Lymond Reply with quote

Jo Beverley wrote:

I'm sure many of them would have been delighted. :)

IIRC, Lymond was his property except for the brief time when he was outlawed, so it wasn't strange to use that term for him. I don't know much about Scottish etiquette, but calling people by their title wasn't peculiar. In fact, what he's called throughout the books, and by whom, is interesting -- including the equivalent of Rat Bastard,

Jo Smile


Jo, I too found that an interesting aspect of the character, one of those little nuances that DD so brilliantly laid into her storytelling.

Call him Lymond, call him Francis, call him Rat Bastard *G*, Lymond was many things to many people. For me he is one of my most favorite heroes, second only to Jamie Fraser, even when he was being rotten. Wink I'm so grateful to DD for writing these books and for creating such a compelling, heart wrenching, delightful, frustrating, maddening, charming, brilliant, beautiful and tortured hero. With all the books I've read I've found this to be a rare treasure and one that I don't take for granted, for they come 'round too few.

Linda
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Brenna



Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 126

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:03 pm    Post subject: Discovering Lymond Chronicles Reply with quote

This is an old thread but I've just discovered the Lymond Chronicles a month or so ago. Thanks to AAR and the wonderful reviews that they have. I'm glad to say I did because this is such a truly wonderful series. I'm in a Lymond obsessive phase right now and can't seem to let it go. Which would probably prompt Danny Hislop (a favourite character), were he a real person, to say that I have joined others to worship in the altar of Francis Crawford. Wink

I do have a question regarding the companions. I have the original one. Do I need to get the Companion II? I have finished reading Nicolo Rising and I didn't find it as interesting as LC. I'm gone back to rereading LC though I do plan to continue HON later. Does the Companion II contain a lot of references to LC still or does it deal mostly with HON?

Re the review, especially that of Checkmate, there is a conversation between Francis to Philippa in the library. It says, "I am going to hold you, Francis, to our marriage." In my book (Vintage), it says there "I am going to hold you, Francis, to your marriage." "Your marriage" and not "our marriage". Typing error? I understood that Philippa was referring to Francis's forthcoming marriage to Catherine, that she is making the sacrifice of giving him to Catherine and that she hopes this sacrifice is not in vain (not giving him to a hole in the ground instead, as she specifically says).
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Linda in sw va



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: Discovering Lymond Chronicles Reply with quote

Brenna wrote:
This is an old thread but I've just discovered the Lymond Chronicles a month or so ago. Thanks to AAR and the wonderful reviews that they have. I'm glad to say I did because this is such a truly wonderful series. I'm in a Lymond obsessive phase right now and can't seem to let it go. Which would probably prompt Danny Hislop (a favourite character), were he a real person, to say that I have joined others to worship in the altar of Francis Crawford. Wink

I do have a question regarding the companions. I have the original one. Do I need to get the Companion II? I have finished reading Niccolo Rising and I didn't find it as interesting as LC. I'm gone back to rereading LC though I do plan to continue HON later. Does the Companion II contain a lot of references to LC still or does it deal mostly with HON?

Re the review, especially that of Checkmate, there is a conversation between Francis to Philippa in the library. It says, "I am going to hold you, Francis, to our marriage." In my book (Vintage), it says there "I am going to hold you, Francis, to your marriage." "Your marriage" and not "our marriage". Typing error? I understood that Philippa was referring to Francis's forthcoming marriage to Catherine, that she is making the sacrifice of giving him to Catherine and that she hopes this sacrifice is not in vain (not giving him to a hole in the ground instead, as she specifically says).



Brennna, it's been years since I read these and I'm still in the Lymond obsessive phase! Smile I was just thinking the other day of doing another re-read. Every time I read them I pick up on something new, little nuisances I had not caught before.

Someday I will read Nicolo Rising again because I'd really like to love this series as much as I did The Lymond Chronicles. I think part of my problem was that I was comparing the two heroes and that really wasn't giving Nicholas a fair chance. Where right away Lymond was wickedly dashing with that biting wit and fair good looks while Nicholas was sort of a dumb oaf - described has having short, dark, frizzy hair, etc. I know he comes into his own later though so I really should hang on for that, although I also do not think I will care for his heroine.

I have both companions and I honestly didn't use them very much (I had another, brief version I used) but I'll type quote from the forward for you that addresses your question -

"The intention was to confine this second Companion to the final three Nicolo novels, which are substantial. Then it seemed only fair to provide some of the historical links between the two series: to show how Lymond's Ivan the terrible was the grandson of Nicholas's Ivan the Great, how the family of Lennox and Aubigny descended through the missing years between the two tales. It then struck us both that there was a great deal of the Lymond and early Niccolo books that had escaped the first volume, and ought to be packed in. It was packed in."

The companion I used was a small, fan made companion that was easier for me to navigate than the longer and more detailed official versions. Found it here -

http://www.dorothydunnettreadingaids.com/items/translation-guide

She also did a beautiful family tree which I purchased as well, did I mention I was obsessed? :)

In this companion the passages are much shorter and a page would look like this -

Chapter V

P. 111
"Madre dios..."
Mother of God! Man, help me, avenge me! Robbers!

"He sido mortificado..."
I have been shamed, insulted, man, made a fool of - Look at me!

P. 112
"Un hidalgo no debe..."A nobelman owes nothing except to God, and nothing to the King.

"mas veen quatro..."
Four eyes see better than two.

P. 115
"Aunque manso..."
Even though your bloodhound is tame, don't miss him on the muzzle.

Anyway, I found this companion book a quick and very helpful guide as I was reading the series and highly recommend it.

I used to have some vintage copies of TLC but I donated them to my library, now I wish I had kept them so I could compare those passages you mentioned. But I will go back and have a look since you've brought it up, all the more motivation for that re-read. :)

Linda
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Anne Hume



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Discovering Lymond Chronicles Reply with quote

Brenna wrote:
Re the review, especially that of Checkmate, there is a conversation between Francis to Philippa in the library. It says, "I am going to hold you, Francis, to our marriage." In my book (Vintage), it says there "I am going to hold you, Francis, to your marriage." "Your marriage" and not "our marriage". Typing error? I understood that Philippa was referring to Francis's forthcoming marriage to Catherine, that she is making the sacrifice of giving him to Catherine and that she hopes this sacrifice is not in vain (not giving him to a hole in the ground instead, as she specifically says).


Glad to know there’s another Lymond fan out there. These books are rather old but I’m glad that people are still discovering them up to now.

I have the the Century/Cassell hardbacks and not the Vintage trade paperback and it is definitely “your marriage” and not “our marriage”. I’ve understood it as something like that too because Sybilla and Archie were really worried about Lymond’s health at that time. So Philippa IMO, was in effect telling Lymond that after all the sacrifice she has done - giving Lymond up to Catherine – to end up losing him in another way is not acceptable to her.

I liked the Companion in a sense that it gives you extra information about a historical character. One could always google about them but some information could be hard to find. Re Janet Beaton for example, it was interesting to know what happened to her afterwards and that she did something to avenge Sir Wat Buccleugh’s death. I tried the internet but got so little information. I’m not sure about the Companion II as I don’t have a copy.

To be honest, I’m a Lymond girl myself so count me in. And don’t you just love Danny? I’m rereading Ringed Castle right now and he is providing me with some laughs. His POV is very interesting in a sense that he is not washed in mawkish sentimentality and is a foil to Adam who is perceptive, sentimental and kind. And his curiosity is so palpable. Then there’s Jerrot. Jerrot, who provides me with lots of laughter too because he is so thickheaded when it comes to the understanding of human psyche. But as a fighting arm, he is excellent and someone you can depend on. It’s nice to see that there is a balance among the St. Mary’s men who form a close circle around Lymond. This would also include Alec Guthrie who strikes me as a thorough professional, Hoddim, etc…

Linda in sw va wrote:
I was just thinking the other day of doing another re-read. Every time I read them I pick up on something new, little nuisances I had not caught before.


Yes, isn’t that true. I wouldn’t call them nuisances but more like having light bulb moments when I find them. Most of the time I would often berate myself for being careless and missing some important information. I think these books have to be read very, very slowly and with as much time that you can spend on each one. Rereads are always a great help.
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Brenna



Joined: 04 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: Discovering Lymond Chronicles Reply with quote

Linda in sw va wrote:
The companion I used was a small, fan made companion that was easier for me to navigate than the longer and more detailed official versions. Found it here -

http://www.dorothydunnettreadingaids.com/items/translation-guide

She also did a beautiful family tree which I purchased as well, did I mention I was obsessed? :)Linda


Thanks! I'm looking for something that would translate all the foreign words in there. I can understand Spanish, but I'm lost with the others. This reading aid seems to be my answer. I am currently having most of the french words translated using those free translation websites but some translations are so confusing. Take this one for example, "Une belle, mais pas frigide! Pas frigide du tout!" from Queen's Play. I'm trying to understand what the Prince of Conde meant when he said this after meeting Francis again, this time not as Thady Boy but as the Vervassal. It is translated as "Beautiful, but not ice-cold! Not ice-cold of the whole!" Though I can understand the gist of it, it sounds a bit weird.

As for the family tree, I have downloaded two from the marzipan yahoo group. One has some additional names suggested by Dorothy Dunnett herself represented in orange. And under the connecting Philippa-Francis line is an orange box which says Lucy. A daughter for Francis & Philippa perhaps.
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Linda in sw va



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Discovering Lymond Chronicles Reply with quote

Brenna wrote:
Thanks! I'm looking for something that would translate all the foreign words in there. I can understand Spanish, but I'm lost with the others. This reading aid seems to be my answer. I am currently having most of the french words translated using those free translation websites but some translations are so confusing. Take this one for example, "Une belle, mais pas frigide! Pas frigide du tout!" from Queen's Play. I'm trying to understand what the Prince of Conde meant when he said this after meeting Francis again, this time not as Thady Boy but as the Vervassal. It is translated as "Beautiful, but not ice-cold! Not ice-cold of the whole!" Though I can understand the gist of it, it sounds a bit weird.

As for the family tree, I have downloaded two from the marzipan yahoo group. One has some additional names suggested by Dorothy Dunnett herself represented in orange. And under the connecting Philippa-Francis line is an orange box which says Lucy. A daughter for Francis & Philippa perhaps.


Brenna, what chapter was it in Queen's Play? I'll look it up for you if you like. If you purchase the guide I think you'll be very pleased.

Marzipan is ringing a bell, I think I may have been a member there years ago when I first discovered the books. It's helpful to have seasoned Lymond readers to consult with when first reading the books. I seem to recall them being a great help at clearing up a few questions I had about what exactly was going on during certain scenes. Luckily I also had a couple friends that had read them and we had a great time chatting back and forth about them. :)

Linda
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Kass



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Take this one for example, "Une belle, mais pas frigide! Pas frigide du tout!"

A beauty, but not frigid.

It's really not that hard to understand.
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