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CD
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 654
Location: London, UK
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 Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:43 pm Post subject: Titles, entails, historical accuracy-post by Lynne Connolly |
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Just to share with you all a great post by Lynne Connolly which I found on "The Good, The Bad and the Unread".
http://goodbadandunread.com/2011/01/23/pondering-downton-abbey-entails-and-other-matters/#more-13396
I especially love her plea at the end:
"A personal plea to authors and publishers of the genre. Please think about creating a “historical fantasy” line. That would be fun. Based on the rules, but with extras and exceptions. Places where young ladies can prance about in public unchaperoned, where the peerage consists of young and handsome dukes, where the fundamental principles are based more on American society than British. What puts me off about picking up a historical, is that they’re not. If it was labelled Fantasy, I’d be able to pick it up and enjoy it. If you want to write a historical, please care enough to do plenty of research. Enjoy the research, embrace it."
Hear hear, I say  !!
Edit: I love the fact she mentioned that there were only 25 dukes in the Regency era. Hmmmnnn...
Further Edit: Thinking about Connolly's point on important/powerful people without titles, I remember a discusion here once where someone mentioned that there were some old powerful families in England who refused potential titles as they wanted to keep the distinction of their family name.
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PatW
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 614
Location: Central Maryland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I found the post very enjoyable - she covers a lot of points that bother me from a little to a lot when I encounter mistakes in historicals. All British historical authors and editors should read this!
I've encountered "heir presumptives" who are nephews through a sister - or cousins through an aunt. However the one that bothes me a lot more since it is so uneccessary is giving younger sons titles they "inherit" through their mother or some such nonsense.
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JaneO
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:13 am Post subject: |
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She does make good points. I have always been slightly mystified by the failure of so many authors to get things like titles and inheritance right. It isn't all that hard, and one would think that someone who wants to write a historical would make the effort.
Maybe they just see the pretty dresses on the PBS series and want to write about them.  |
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dick
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2248
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree; Ms. Connelly's article was informative and delightfully clear. On the other hand, the genre is basically fantasy. If the romance is the center of the novel, should one who, like me, has only a rudimentary knowledge of the correct way to address a peer or the child of a peer, pay any special attention to what is essentially peripheral to that central story? |
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PatW
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| dick wrote: | | I agree; Ms. Connelly's article was informative and delightfully clear. On the other hand, the genre is basically fantasy. If the romance is the center of the novel, should one who, like me, has only a rudimentary knowledge of the correct way to address a peer or the child of a peer, pay any special attention to what is essentially peripheral to that central story? |
I agree, Dick, modes of address while annoying to some (who know what they should be) and ignored by others (who don't)are rarely pivitol to plot.
What annoys me greatly are plot points or, even worse, primary premises that are based on totally incorrect inheritance assumptions. If an author is going to hang the plot on who is destined to inherit (or not), then research it and get it right!
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Titles, entails, historical accuracy-post by Lynne Conno |
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| CD wrote: | | "A personal plea to authors and publishers of the genre. Please think about creating a “historical fantasy” line. That would be fun. Based on the rules, but with extras and exceptions. Places where young ladies can prance about in public unchaperoned, where the peerage consists of young and handsome dukes, where the fundamental principles are based more on American society than British. . |
What would be the point in having it be a historical then? Just make it in modern day.
Linda
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CD
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, but then you don't get to wear those pretty pretty frocks...
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Susan/DC
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| dick wrote: | | I agree; Ms. Connelly's article was informative and delightfully clear. On the other hand, the genre is basically fantasy. If the romance is the center of the novel, should one who, like me, has only a rudimentary knowledge of the correct way to address a peer or the child of a peer, pay any special attention to what is essentially peripheral to that central story? |
Yes, but so little work is required to get it right that the author should make that effort. That way she doesn't annoy those who know and those who don't know (or don't care) aren't affected and may even learn something. |
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xina
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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Location: minneapolis
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Susan/DC"][
Yes, but so little work is required to get it right that the author should make that effort. That way she doesn't annoy those who know and those who don't know (or don't care) aren't affected and may even learn something.[/quote
I would be willing to bet that lack of accuracy doesn't annoy the bulk of readers in the romance genre. Most are reading for the romance and unless the inaccuracy is very bold, most are not going to notice. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. I don't think we all require absolute accuracy, and if we do, perhaps we should switch to historical fiction.
And the suggestion of a "historical fantasy" line is rather presumptuous on her part. Geesh.
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Susan/DC
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| xina wrote: |
I would be willing to bet that lack of accuracy doesn't annoy the bulk of readers in the romance genre. Most are reading for the romance and unless the inaccuracy is very bold, most are not going to notice. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. I don't think we all require absolute accuracy, and if we do, perhaps we should switch to historical fiction. |
While I agree that many, if not most, readers don't care, I'm talking about the easy stuff that you can find on lots of websites (including Jo Beverley's post about titles on AAR). If it takes only 1/2 hour to look something up and get it right, I'd think it would be well worth it. Why antagonize even a minority of readers if the cost to you is so low in both time and effort and if by doing so you show respect to your work and your readers? Please note that I'm not talking about research that may take days, which a writer working on deadline may not have, or access to specialized libraries. In the end it is the prose, the characters, and the story I care about, not whether the aristocratic title is right or champagne flutes existed in the Regency. However, to paraphrase Hallmark, it's nice to know the author cared enough to send her very best. |
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xina
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6627
Location: minneapolis
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Susan/DC wrote: | [
While I agree that many, if not most, readers don't care, I'm talking about the easy stuff that you can find on lots of websites (including Jo Beverley's post about titles on AAR). If it takes only 1/2 hour to look something up and get it right, I'd think it would be well worth it. Why antagonize even a minority of readers if the cost to you is so low in both time and effort and if by doing so you show respect to your work and your readers? Please note that I'm not talking about research that may take days, which a writer working on deadline may not have, or access to specialized libraries. In the end it is the prose, the characters, and the story I care about, not whether the aristocratic title is right or champagne flutes existed in the Regency. However, to paraphrase Hallmark, it's nice to know the author cared enough to send her very best. |
Yes, Jo Beverley is a phenomenal writer and I have enjoyed many, many of her books. I appreciate that the details in her book are historically accurate, but what I love about her books is the writing, the story. For me to enjoy a book, that comes first for me before absolute historical accuracy. Sure, I have hot buttons. I dislike modern language or slang used by historical characters where it just pulls me out of the story. As for the author bringing her best, perhaps her best is top notch for me even if the historical details are not accurate. So, in that...for this reader, her best might be delightful for me to read. I've always thought that an author cannot please every single reader.
All in all the blog post by the author seemed a tad like scolding her fellow authors. And can you imagine Kleypas or Dodd or any other very successful author being told her work was to be put in a new "historical fantasy" line because she's written about one too many dukes? I'd like to be a fly on that wall. 
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CD
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Well, my experience with historicals is that an author who takes care to get the basic details right (and I am talking basic here - not champayne flutes detail) is more likely to get the other, more important, stuff right.
I would have absolutely no idea of the exact way to address the first cousin once removed of a duke, but like all readers, I do notice things like the tone, setting and the attitudes of the characters. I read historicals in order to be completely immersed in that world - where every little detail contributes to the overall "feel" of the novel and the illusion that this is real. I would prefer not to be thinking through the book "how did the heroine manage to get hold of a copy of "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus"" 200 years before it was published.
I don't know. Maybe we should take the label "historical romance" to just automatically mean "romance set in a historical fantasy world". However, personally, I would feel that to be a right shame.
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xina
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| CD wrote: | Well, my experience with historicals is that an author who takes care to get the basic details right (and I am talking basic here - not champayne flutes detail) is more likely to get the other, more important, stuff right.
I would have absolutely no idea of the exact way to address the first cousin once removed of a duke, but like all readers, I do notice things like the tone, setting and the attitudes of the characters. I read historicals in order to be completely immersed in that world - where every little detail contributes to the overall "feel" of the novel and the illusion that this is real. I would prefer not to be thinking through the book "how did the heroine manage to get hold of a copy of "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus"" 200 years before it was published.
I don't know. Maybe we should take the label "historical romance" to just automatically mean "romance set in a historical fantasy world". However, personally, I would feel that to be a right shame. |
Of course the example you mention is a blatant error, I would hope that you are kidding in that. I remember reading a historical where the heroine "couldn't wrap her brain around" some idea. Or where the hero gave the heroine a "whatever" as a response. I really have to force myself to keep reading when language brings the novel into the contemporary world. I do remember the dust-up here regarding the champagne flutes. I remember feeling sorry for the author and thinking that point was just petty and really ridiculous in the end. And I have say that I have been happy with many books where the author may or may not have gotten it right, because really...I wouldn't know the difference. The writing and the basic story-telling is what draws me in and keeps me reading and going back to that author and I won't apologize for that.
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