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Tee
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 4051
Location: Detroit Metro
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 Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: |
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My quick thoughts about all this are--if the seeds aren't planted, then how can you expect any crops? It doesn't hurt to try to instill positive ideas about learning. If some kids don't get that from their home, then they'll need to get it from someone else. We can be that someone else.
Mother Teresa had a lot of little quotes she used to blurt out. One of them was: God doesn't require us to succeed; he only requires that you try. We can do our part of that equation and hope for the best. |
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Juliette
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 149
Location: Philadelphia Burbs
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| norcalgolfer wrote: | The whole point of the speech seems to be great, I doubt whether very many children will take it to heart, but if it makes a difference in even a few that's awesome. I don't like where Obama has to lie to try to relate though. His mom remarried when he was 4, to a man who worked for an Oil company as well as the Indonesian government, they did not have to struggle for money. When he was 8 he went to live with his maternal grandparents, both of which had good jobs. Him saying that he was raised by a single mom who had to struggle is a lie, unless you consider age 2 to 4 being totally raised, how many memories can he possibly have from those 2 years?
I think the speech was great, but in the future it would be nice if Obama could give a speech to a group without including gratuitous lies. |
I think you're way off base calling Obama a liar. Way off base. You seem to perceive his childhood in a simplistic way, and his young years were anything but.
I've read articles and seen interviews, but I went back and re-read a Time article and a few other sources.
His mother and step-dad were not well-to-do in Indonesia, not at first. In fact, according to the Time article, they had no electricity and the road wasn't even paved! His step-dad did eventually work his way up, but young Barack only lived there for 4 years, so his experience in the better neighborhood was relatively short.
He came back to live with his grandparents in Hawaii at ten, and his mother and step-sister followed a year later. Lolo visited often, but they never lived together again, so while she didn't officially divorce him till 1980, their marriage was essentially over when she left.
The three of them lived together in an apartment, she going to grad school, and when he was 14, she went back to Indonesia to do field work to get her Ph.D. He asked to stay behind, then at that time moving back in with his grandparents permanently. She moved back to Hawaii a time or two, living in friends homes and small apartments, but is reported to have moved many times.
His years with his grandparents sound much, much more stable but they were by no means well-to-do. His grandfather was a furniture salesman, he and Barack's grandmother lived in an apartment, not even affluent enough to own their own home. They went without so he could attend a good school, partially on a scholarship, and then he took out student loans earned scholarships for higher education.
So, essentially he was largely raised by his mother until he was a teenager. I find nothing untrue about his history as he recounts it, and he often speaks of living with his grandparents and how they were a huge part of his adolescent, and beyond, life.
Link to article: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1729524,00.html
Last edited by Juliette on Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:58 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Claire
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 1309
Location: around Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Juliette wrote: | | norcalgolfer wrote: | The whole point of the speech seems to be great, I doubt whether very many children will take it to heart, but if it makes a difference in even a few that's awesome. I don't like where Obama has to lie to try to relate though. His mom remarried when he was 4, to a man who worked for an Oil company as well as the Indonesian government, they did not have to struggle for money. When he was 8 he went to live with his maternal grandparents, both of which had good jobs. Him saying that he was raised by a single mom who had to struggle is a lie, unless you consider age 2 to 4 being totally raised, how many memories can he possibly have from those 2 years?
I think the speech was great, but in the future it would be nice if Obama could give a speech to a group without including gratuitous lies. |
I think you're way off base calling Obama a liar. Way off base. You seem to perceive his childhood in a simplistic way, and his young years were anything but.
I've read articles and seen interviews, but I went back and re-read a Time article and a few other sources.
His mother and step-dad were not well to do in Indonesia, not at first. In fact, according to the Time article, they had no electricity and the road wasn't even paved. His step-dad did eventually work his way up, but young Barack only lived there for 4 years, so his experience in the better neighborhood was relatively short.
He came back to live with his grandparents in Hawaii at ten, and his mother and step-sister followed a year later. Lolo visited often, but they never lived together again, so while she didn't officially divorce him till 1980, their marriage was essentially over when she left.
The three of them lived together in an apartment, she going to grad school, and when he was 14, she went back to Indonesia to do field work to get her Ph.D. He asked to stay behind, then at that time moving back in with his grandparents permanently. She moved back to Hawaii a time or two, living in friends homes and small apartments, but is reported to have moved many times.
His years with his grandparents sound much, much more stable but they were by no means well-to-do. His grandfather was a furniture salesman and lived in an apartment, not even affluent enough to own their own home. They went without so he could attend a good school, partially on a scholarship, and then he took out student loans earned scholarships for higher education.
So, essentially he was largely raised by his mother until he was a teenager. I find nothing untrue about his history as he recounts it, and he often speaks of living with his grandparents and how they were a huge part of his adolescent, and beyond, life.
Link to article: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1729524,00.html |
Juliette you are right of course. It seems that since there was no political hay to be made out of the speech to children, something else had to be brought up, hence, the fodder about how he was raised. |
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LizE
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 246
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:48 am Post subject: |
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The hoopla over Obama's speech is a perfect example of why I don't believe in public education. Kids who are already experiencing a government-approved curriculum delivered using government-approved theories of child development (many of which I think are just plain wrong) now get their own government-approved inspirational message from the president. One suggested activity (later withdrawn) was for teachers to put up posters with quotes from earlier Obama speeches--an image that creeped me out.
This is nothing against Obama's speech, which I thought was warm and filled with good advice to kids--and he's a phenomenal speaker. If he wants to give kids pep talks, he should go for it, then teachers and parents can decide if and how and when they want to share his words with children. Beaming him directly into a public-school classroom just doesn't sit right with me, especially when so many children have no choice but to be there.
Which brings me to my real beef with Obama: vouchers. Feeling as I do about public schools, obviously I wasn't about to send my own kid to one, and I have no gift for home schooling. There's a misconception that private schools are only for the rich, but it's just not true. There are quite a few of us working second--and sometimes third--jobs to give our kids the education we want them to have.
Obama on public education: “I think that we have to consider every possibility of improving what admittedly is an intolerable school system for a lot of inner-city kids. I do not believe in school vouchers.”
So he wants to consider every possibility except the one that would actually empower parents to make choices regaring their child's education. Because as Obama has also said (when addressing the NEA-big surprise!), he will never abandon public schools by approving vouchers. Implicit in this promise is the understanding that if he did approve vouchers, public schools would suffer as people stampeded for the door--as no doubt they would. So the only way to keep kids in these government-run institutions is by removing all other options, which our president has promised to do--even though, by his own admission, many of the schools are intolerable.
Of course, none of this applies to his children. They go to private school.
Obama's blatant hypocrisy on this issue has really lessened my respect for him. |
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Claire
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 1309
Location: around Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| LizE wrote: | The hoopla over Obama's speech is a perfect example of why I don't believe in public education. Kids who are already experiencing a government-approved curriculum delivered using government-approved theories of child development (many of which I think are just plain wrong) now get their own government-approved inspirational message from the president. One suggested activity (later withdrawn) was for teachers to put up posters with quotes from earlier Obama speeches--an image that creeped me out.
This is nothing against Obama's speech, which I thought was warm and filled with good advice to kids--and he's a phenomenal speaker. If he wants to give kids pep talks, he should go for it, then teachers and parents can decide if and how and when they want to share his words with children. Beaming him directly into a public-school classroom just doesn't sit right with me, especially when so many children have no choice but to be there.
Which brings me to my real beef with Obama: vouchers. Feeling as I do about public schools, obviously I wasn't about to send my own kid to one, and I have no gift for home schooling. There's a misconception that private schools are only for the rich, but it's just not true. There are quite a few of us working second--and sometimes third--jobs to give our kids the education we want them to have.
Obama on public education: “I think that we have to consider every possibility of improving what admittedly is an intolerable school system for a lot of inner-city kids. I do not believe in school vouchers.”
So he wants to consider every possibility except the one that would actually empower parents to make choices regaring their child's education. Because as Obama has also said (when addressing the NEA-big surprise!), he will never abandon public schools by approving vouchers. Implicit in this promise is the understanding that if he did approve vouchers, public schools would suffer as people stampeded for the door--as no doubt they would. So the only way to keep kids in these government-run institutions is by removing all other options, which our president has promised to do--even though, by his own admission, many of the schools are intolerable.
Of course, none of this applies to his children. They go to private school.
Obama's blatant hypocrisy on this issue has really lessened my respect for him. |
One of the problems with voucher schools though is funding accountability. At one point in 2003 almost 100 schools in Florida who took voucher money were suspended by the state. One charter school in Polk County spent $70,000 for a teachers retreat at the Sheraton in Clearwater. Sounds nice for the teachers but what about the kids. Another school charged over a hundred thousand dollars for kids who didn't even attend the school. I'm not sure what the answer is to improving schools but the voucher system sounds like a quick and unreliable fix, not a long term solution. |
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norcalgolfer
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 38
Location: Ranch Cordova, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I have no interest in trying to make political hay, and I definitely do not simply look for a problem in anything Obama says, but it is a fact that Obama has regularly made statements that are either untrue, or made implications that are untrue. I would tell you to do the research but after spending hours doing it myself I wouldn't wish that torture on anyone. Don't think that I am referring to the largely false emails that circulated listing "50 Obama lies", some of those mentioned are actually lies he told, but many are misrepresentations themselves. That being said, it is completely true that he has often invented things in order to relate better to whatever group he is speaking to, i.e. the whole Selma, AL fiasco.
I know that when I mention these lies I seem petty to all the Obama supporters, but to me "petty" lies tell us a lot about a persons character. I also have personal issues with those type of lies due to the fact that my ex-wife has an almost pathological tendency for the same type of lies. I have a hard time respecting anyone who feels it is acceptable to lie in order to make themselves look a little better, or avoid looking even slightly bad. When that person is our President I have an even bigger problem.
I personally am sick and tired of both the R's and the D's when it comes to Obama. The D's seem to think he can do no wrong, and justify all of his multitude of lies, while the R's can't accept anything good he has done or is trying to do while at the same time exaggerating many of the real flaws in his policy to the point that they themselves cannot be trusted. All of this makes it extremely frustrating for those of us in the middle who want a balanced view.
As far as whether Obama lied in his statement.....his mom was not "single" she was married for the time he was talking about in Indonesia, and the man even adopted Barry with Barry taking his last name which Barack continued to use for many more years. I have a son of my own, who I care for at least half of the time, but I will not say I am a single dad because a. I am not single, and b. I am not the only one caring for him. So yes, Obama made implications that were just not true, and regarding his early years there have been a lot of articles including the Time article referenced earlier. The problem is none of the articles seem to agree completely, I have read where Barack himself claims to have been in Indonesia 5 years, that he lived there from age 6 to 10, that he left when he was 9, that he left when he was 8, that he moved there when he was 4, or 6, that his grandparents both had good jobs, that they were poor, and so on. This has made finding out the truth very, very difficult and to be honest, after spending several more hours last night trying to verify anything about his early years I have decided to give up, which makes me wonder if that is maybe the entire goal of the obscurity surrounding those early years as well as the fact that so many articles from so many sources disagree on so many little points.
Back to the speech to kids, I was told yesterday that Bush sr. made a similar speech in 1991, and that the Dems forced some sort of hearing about it and made a huge stink? I am also more than a little tired of Obama holding press conferences and making speeches, I would rather he be more worried about running the country than his public image and media coverage. |
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Lee
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 215
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, Norcalgolfer, looks like you and Joe Wilson are on the same page. I don't agree with you two, but even if your claims were true, nothing compares to the lies this country was told to get us to support the invasion of Iraq after 9/11. Nothing. |
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norcalgolfer
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 38
Location: Ranch Cordova, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Personally I have absolutely zero problems with our President lying to us for national security reasons, however I do have problems with one lying just to get votes or look good, but you are free to mantain your love of Obama regardless of his words and actions. |
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Claire
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 1309
Location: around Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| norcalgolfer wrote: | | Personally I have absolutely zero problems with our President lying to us for national security reasons, . |
This would be laughable except that thousands of American's have been killed over the lies Bush/Cheney told. Obama lying to look good? Hahahaha. I'm pretty sure his mentality is higher than that of a third grader. |
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Lee
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 215
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| The national security excuse was the one Bush was counting on us to swallow. So I guess you would support Obama lying to us to invade Iran, North Korea, China and Venezuela to make the US safer too? Because they are more a threat to us than Iraq ever was. |
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LizE
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 246
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Claire, I'm sure there have been problems with vouchers, but let's refine the system, let's make it a priority to really do sometihng to improve education, not just throw up our hands and say it's hopeless. Even though it probably is. Unions have way too much clout.
As for the Obama vs. Bush truth-bending sweepstakes, I think it's a bit of a red herring. Politicians lie. All of them. They lie to convince a nation to go to war, they lie to get elected, they lie to stay in office--and then there are some (like Joe Biden and the Clintons) who seem to just make sh*t up for the heck of it.
I don't know why they do this--and why we let them get away with it. Maybe it's because instead of uniting, we allow ourselves to be divided along party lines, which I believe have become almost meaningless in the real world of Washington politics. Oh, Dems might say they believe one thing and Republicans another, but they're all just saying what they think the voters want to hear. Once they get in, they dance to a different tune--the one called by their largest contributors, who give money to both parties so they always have people working in their interests.
Geez, now I've gone and depressed myself. |
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Juliette
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 149
Location: Philadelphia Burbs
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| norcalgolfer wrote: | | As far as whether Obama lied in his statement.....his mom was not "single" she was married for the time he was talking about in Indonesia, and the man even adopted Barry with Barry taking his last name which Barack continued to use for many more years. I have a son of my own, who I care for at least half of the time, but I will not say I am a single dad because a. I am not single, and b. I am not the only one caring for him. So yes, Obama made implications that were just not true, and regarding his early years there have been a lot of articles including the Time article referenced earlier. The problem is none of the articles seem to agree completely, I have read where Barack himself claims to have been in Indonesia 5 years, that he lived there from age 6 to 10, that he left when he was 9, that he left when he was 8, that he moved there when he was 4, or 6, that his grandparents both had good jobs, that they were poor, and so on. This has made finding out the truth very, very difficult and to be honest, after spending several more hours last night trying to verify anything about his early years I have decided to give up, which makes me wonder if that is maybe the entire goal of the obscurity surrounding those early years as well as the fact that so many articles from so many sources disagree on so many little points. |
No links or sources, so you're basically talking out of your ass. I backed up my post with facts and a link to a mainstream news magazine.
For five years my daughter was raised by a single mother even though it was 'only' from age 2 to 7.
What's your beef with what is factually accurate? |
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norcalgolfer
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 38
Location: Ranch Cordova, CA
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Juliette
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 149
Location: Philadelphia Burbs
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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We can agree on one thing, those links are torturous. All that filthy right wing propaganda makes me want to take a shower.
Seriously norcalgolfer, what's with the link dump? The only one that even mentioned Obama's mother was the NYT article, and that was about his faith.
Newsmax? National Review? Michele freakin Malkin?? The link to the guy who says Obama is a Muslim is actually debunked in the Snopes list you linked to . . . along with just about every other lie and smear! I think I'll post that one myself.
You don't like the guy so you believe the worst of him. The next time you want to call someone a gratuitous liar you better go look in the mirror. |
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norcalgolfer
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 38
Location: Ranch Cordova, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Juliette wrote: | | norcalgolfer wrote: | | As far as whether Obama lied in his statement.....his mom was not "single" she was married for the time he was talking about in Indonesia, and the man even adopted Barry with Barry taking his last name which Barack continued to use for many more years. I have a son of my own, who I care for at least half of the time, but I will not say I am a single dad because a. I am not single, and b. I am not the only one caring for him. So yes, Obama made implications that were just not true, and regarding his early years there have been a lot of articles including the Time article referenced earlier. The problem is none of the articles seem to agree completely, I have read where Barack himself claims to have been in Indonesia 5 years, that he lived there from age 6 to 10, that he left when he was 9, that he left when he was 8, that he moved there when he was 4, or 6, that his grandparents both had good jobs, that they were poor, and so on. This has made finding out the truth very, very difficult and to be honest, after spending several more hours last night trying to verify anything about his early years I have decided to give up, which makes me wonder if that is maybe the entire goal of the obscurity surrounding those early years as well as the fact that so many articles from so many sources disagree on so many little points. |
No links or sources, so you're basically talking out of your ass. I backed up my post with facts and a link to a mainstream news magazine.
For five years my daughter was raised by a single mother even though it was 'only' from age 2 to 7.
What's your beef with what is factually accurate? |
How am I supposed to answer with links or sources without actually posting the links?
I stated that in the process of trying to find out the truth about whether Obama has in fact lied I was forced to spend several hours on the internet reading stories that all disagreed in some way or another with each other about different points. Some agreed with parts of others, while disagreeing with other parts within those others. I actually read all of that crap, as well as much of the comments on each. I completely agree, it was torturous, and yes there was quite a bit of right wing B.S., as well as an equal amount of left wing crap.
My whole statement was that it was extremely hard to get a completely accurate picture. I apologize if I got the ages mixed up, or that maybe he was poor and it was a valid statement on his part. I wasn't trying to lie, considering the responses to previous posts of mine I would have to be stupid to not expect any flaw to be grabbed upon, wouldn't I. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong, and after further review, there is no doubt in my mind that I was at the absolute very least partly wrong, and very likely more than just partly. In the context of the speech to kids post I had no business even mentioning. Unfortunately, the lies that have been told by Obama have caused me to have the tendency to distrust certain aspects of his speeches automatically.
A couple things are clear if you bother to research by reading both sides of the aisle as well as "supposed" unbiased researchers with regards to Obama.
A. Politicians, and people who write about politicians, have a huge propensity towards distorting the truth. I'm sure everybody knows this already and has for almost as long as they could understand language, most likely.
B. Obama is absolutely no different in this regard from the rest. Not everything he is called a liar for was actually a lie, but some definitely were.
I gave you the beginning of the list of articles I looked at last night alone. That was not all, and I included more than one (if you checked them all) that at least partially debunked some of Obama's supposed lies. I didn't only link to right wing websites as I didn't only look at right wing websites. And just because I list the articles doesn't mean I believe in or agree with them. In fact, in my post I specifically state I know many to be lying (about supposed Obama lies).
You don't know me, and nobody who does would consider me even close to a gratuitous liar. I am a highly ethical person who really detests lies. I am not going to pretend I have never lied or felt the need to, quite the opposite, but even though was never a prolific liar in any way I have worked hard to change my life as I matured in order to become an entirely honest person, even with my fiance, about everything, even all the little things that 90% of men lie about (I should know).
I can also say I was raised by a single mother, although that was only 4-5 years, and I personally don't say I was "raised" by a single mother. My Dad certainly wasn't there a ton, and my Mom is incredible, but I don't consider myself to have been raised by a single mother even though she definitely was a single mother by all definitions for those few years.
The beautiful thing about America, is our freedom to maintain differing opinions, and to express them freely. My opinion after due research is that I do not like the petty (unimportant/not relevant) lies as well as some of the policy distortions of Obama. My further opinion is that I now have a tendency towards distrust in statements given by Obama during speeches; when trying to relate especially. I also feel Obama gives far too many speeches, I would much rather he spend some time learning, watching, and running this country.
Considering Obama ran on a campaign of hope, change, transparency, and being in touch with the commoner, I don't think it is too much for me to be disappointed and angry to find him just like all the rest of the politicians. |
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