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“Womenomics” & the Palin Nomination
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Yulie



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 1149
Location: Elsewhere

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karen, I do not follow the election as closely as most Americans and don't have a real stake in it, but I'm fairly certain your post contains some inaccuracies:

1. Creationism - Sarah Palin apparently supports debating it if the matter comes up in class, not changing Alaska's curricula for schools. Is there any evidence that schools in Alaska are teaching creationism, or even intelligent design?

2. Abstinence only: see this LA Times story, which reports that Ms. Palin's stance is that kids should be taught about contraception. Her original statement was that she does not support explicit sex ed programs; she does not consider teaching about condom use to be explicit.

3. Spending on hunting vs. education: could you source your statement? This Education Week report seems to indicate that Palin has done a decent, though not brilliant, job on educational issues. Also, from the data I could find, Alaskan graduation rates are low - but not the lowest in the US (I must note that I couldn't find data from the last two years).

As I wrote on another thread, I personally disagree with many of Sarah Palin's views and policies. But I also think those of you in the US who view McCain-Palin as a bad choice have plenty of things to criticize in Ms. Palin's record without resorting to misrepresenting her views and actions. And at the very least, you can take the time to spell her name correctly.
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bbmedos



Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 274
Location: Western Kentucky, USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think it's still a legitimate question to ask about Palin or about anybody.


Okay, then. How many children does Nancy Pelosi have? Five, I think? She's third in line already. How does she do it?

Quote:
Sara Palin is a distraction. She's a fresh new face for most of us even though she's well known in Republican circles. {snip} They are doing their best to make their "princess" the focus instead of the issues since the Republicans have created the majority of the problems.


Well, if they are, then apparently you're all falling for it hook, line and sinker. 'Cause that's all any of you want to talk about.

Princess? ROTFLMAO!
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Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 4223
Location: Detroit Metro

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbmedos wrote:
Well, if they are, then apparently you're all falling for it hook, line and sinker. 'Cause that's all any of you want to talk about.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anything that you said previously, bbmedos, but I did have to acknowledge the truth of the above statement of yours. And, right now, it's scaring me, because the issues are taking left field.

And here's the clinker. All vice presidents are only a heartbeat away from the Presidency. That's the way it is. If I think back far enough, I could probably come up with a few vice presidents who I am thankful never had the opportunity to switch positions (totally incompetent). In the scheme of things (other than Cheney who some feel actually is President), vice presidents really don't do much and influence even less once they're in office. It's time to re-concentrate on the men who are running for President and understand their thoughts on the main issues confronting most of us.

So, no matter our party or favorite presidential contender, make sure it's his take on problems and concerns that are the factors for voting for him.
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SH



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: “Womenomics” & the Palin Nomination Reply with quote

Thank you, bbmedos, for the story on Todd Palin. I personally consider it a wonderful story and think it should be told more often by her supporters.

bbmedos wrote:
Addendum: I guess what I'm saying is why should they have to expand upon something that's already accepted as normal for a male candidate?

I think this is at the heart of our differences. I and a number of man and women I know do not think gender equality means what is accepted as a norm for men is accepted as a norm for women. For us, gender equality means questioning the norm and renegotiating it. I travel occasionally for business. My husband relishes the moment when some church members would ask him, "So how do you cope with meals when she is away?" He then gets to answer, "Why, I have one less person to cook for!" Not too long ago, we were with a group of people and someone who hadn't heard of my husband's answer asked the question. Before my husband got to reply it, someone in the group said, "You asked the wrong person. You should have asked his wife how she's going to cope with meals when he is traveling." The inquirers could be simply curious, or they might have sexist views. It doesn't matter. Asking questions expose underlying presumptions, and is a step forward in the process toward equality.

bbmedos wrote:
So what if he wasn't a stay at home dad? They couldn't get nannies? Huh?

Yes, they could, and I wouldn't have any problems with it. However, they'd better be ready to explain why this is acceptable to them but not to many other families who are often criticized by the conservative camp for neglecting their children for such arrangements.

xina wrote:
... I am wondering what her plan is. ... There is certainly nothing wrong with either of those choices. I just think the accusation of calling it a sexist remark is uncalled for.

I agree. And I actually think such questions help a candidate by allowing her to demonstrate to her voters that she does have a good workable plan, which is all the more important given the last 8 years.

Gail K. wrote:
I think this generation is more respectful of the myriad of ways a couple decides to balance work and family life.

And I hope it will stay this way. That is why I am weary of Palin's choice becoming THE choice for women and her daughter's choice becoming THE choice for girls.

bbmedos wrote:
But is it a question that's been asked of Biden?

Whether the question was asked, I think Biden answered it anyway years ago in his story of taking the senate oath by his son's hospital bed and taking the Amtrak home from D.C. almost every night in order to be with his young sons.
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KarenS



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 870
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yulie wrote:
Karen, I do not follow the election as closely as most Americans and don't have a real stake in it, but I'm fairly certain your post contains some inaccuracies:

1. Creationism - Sarah Palin apparently supports debating it if the matter comes up in class, not changing Alaska's curricula for schools. Is there any evidence that schools in Alaska are teaching creationism, or even intelligent design?


Sarah with an H Palin ran for Governor called for teaching of creationism in the schools although once elected Governor did not push the idea......YET. There is still time for it to be brought up if she so chooses. The one thing about teaching religion in public schools is the fact that there are so many students of so many faiths. Should we give time to everyone of them? Personally, I believe we should allow time for the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to be taught in school if we are going to give equal time to creationism. I believe in separation of church and state. If you want your kids to learn about God, take them to Sunday School and Church. Leave the public schools alone to teach important subjects such as real science. No wonder America is falling behind in science education. We can't even teach science to our students while the rest of the world gives their student a decent science background.

Quote:
2. Abstinence only: see this LA Times story, which reports that Ms. Palin's stance is that kids should be taught about contraception. Her original statement was that she does not support explicit sex ed programs; she does not consider teaching about condom use to be explicit.


What is explicit sex education? Use of condoms as well as birth control should be the bare minimum in a program so if she is willing to offer that then she is doing better than most Religious Right political candidates. Many of them don't even want to go there as they think we might be giving these kids "ideas." Imagine that. As if most teen-age kids aren't thinking about sex. This is a wedge issue. It keeps the religious right voting and turning out to vote on Election Day. Energize them so they will vote. Again, Sarah with an H still has time to follow through on her campaign promises. Or are they just things she says to get elected?

Quote:
3. Spending on hunting vs. education: could you source your statement? This Education Week report seems to indicate that Palin has done a decent, though not brilliant, job on educational issues. Also, from the data I could find, Alaskan graduation rates are low - but not the lowest in the US (I must note that I couldn't find data from the last two years).


According to KTVF in Fairbanks, Alaska in an education report from the Alaska Commission on Post-Secondary Education, Alaska was at the bottom as reported on May 14, 2008. Actually, I am surprised at this. There are several southern states who often vie for that honor. My state included said to say. However, according to this report, Alaska shares this dubious honor for this year. Who knows where it will be next year. It also said the biggest problems in Alaska is the high numbers of drug and alchohol abuse in the state. I even saw where Wasilla--Sarah's hometown--is the meth capitol of the state. Not that I'm tying that in with Sarah with an H but in small towns what else is there to do? She did offer $150.00 bounty for hunters bringing in wolf paws to show they had killed them. How much money was set aside for this program? Was it more than their education allotment? I don't know so you may have me on this one. Sarah with an H has applauded the program. In a letter her comments reflected someone who doesn't have a use for science while pushing this program. Wolves serve a purpose in the wild to cull out the herds otherwise the balance of nature is turned upside down. FWIW, wolf fur is used in the lining of parkas since its fur doesn't freeze from human breath. What would happen if all the wolves were decimated? They would have to find alternate wolf fur. The program seems to favor wussies who like to play at hunting. Can't be on the ground hunting the wolves or the wolf might get them instead.

Quote:
As I wrote on another thread, I personally disagree with many of Sarah Palin's views and policies. But I also think those of you in the US who view McCain-Palin as a bad choice have plenty of things to criticize in Ms. Palin's record without resorting to misrepresenting her views and actions. And at the very least, you can take the time to spell her name correctly.


Many apologies for misspelling Sarah without an H. I was more concerned about spelling her last name correctly and didn't even think about her first name. See she's a newbie to me. Our country has many problems to solve. However, many of these social issues serve as wedges to divide the country which is why many voters are wary of Sarah with an H.
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xina



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6635
Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="KarenS"]
Yulie wrote:
Karen, I do not follow the election as closely as most Americans and don't have a real stake in it, but I'm fairly certain your post contains some inaccuracies:

1. Creationism - Sarah Palin apparently supports debating it if the matter comes up in class, not changing Alaska's curricula for schools. Is there any evidence that schools in Alaska are teaching creationism, or even intelligent design?


Sarah with an H Palin ran for Governor called for teaching of creationism in the schools although once elected Governor did not push the idea......YET. There is still time for it to be brought up if she so chooses. The one thing about teaching religion in public schools is the fact that there are so many students of so many faiths. Should we give time to everyone of them? Personally, I believe we should allow time for the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to be taught in school if we are going to give equal time to creationism. I believe in separation of church and state. If you want your kids to learn about God, take them to Sunday School and Church. Leave the public schools alone to teach important subjects such as real science. No wonder America is falling behind in science education. We can't even teach science to our students while the rest of the world gives their student a decent science background.

[quote]



Agree! Separation of church and state is very important. And too, didn't she make some statement concerning the Iraq War calling it "the will of God?" I don't want a leader with blinders on. It's bad enough she attempts to foist her ideas on Alaska...the entire country is another story.
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Yulie



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 1149
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, Karen, I'm very secular, but I had both religous studies and science at my school, and I feel it is possible to discuss religion and religious texts in a thoughtful, engaging and occasionally critical manner without harming science education. We read the Bible based on cultural, historical, and literary perspectives, and it gave me a better understanding of a text that has had a huge influence on human societies and cultures throughout history. Is that realistic in the US? I have no idea. That's for you guys to figure out. But I fail to see how ignoring something instead of discussing it helps.

Writing "Sarah with an H" throughout your post does not make it clever, and "she hasn't done X but that doesn't mean she won't" is really not much of an argument. I think it's best if we discontinue any further discussion between the two of us.

To everyone else: as I've written before, while I try to be well-informed on the subject, for me, as a non-American, there is less at stake here. Obviously and unsurprisingly, this election is drawing some strong reactions and there are plenty of controversial subjects related to it. So I'm going to leave it to you guys. I've got plenty of political issues to keep me busy closer to home.
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Maggie AAR
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 2471

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yulie wrote:

To everyone else: as I've written before, while I try to be well-informed on the subject, for me, as a non-American, there is less at stake here. Obviously and unsurprisingly, this election is drawing some strong reactions and there are plenty of controversial subjects related to it. So I'm going to leave it to you guys. I've got plenty of political issues to keep me busy closer to home.


Yulie, I think you've gotten a good indication of why many Americans don't vote. They get tired of the theatrics of the whole thing with people being clever and snarky and making presumptions and assumptions as opposed to actually looking at voting records etc. Personally, I think this is why in this election, like the last one, we have the individual parties offering up people that many independents are almost shrug their shoulders indifferent to. Too many of the party faithful love the theatrics, smearing, etc. that go on to see it stop and they always have the other side to blame when things go wrong. I wonder what it will take for Americans to finally have a grown up election, rather than running one that makes voting for the student body president in high school more mature and professional? Do we really need things to get worse here before we decide we should all sit down and hammer out a common cause?

maggie b.
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bbmedos



Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 274
Location: Western Kentucky, USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: “Womenomics” & the Palin Nomination Reply with quote

SH wrote:
bbmedos wrote:
But is it a question that's been asked of Biden?

Whether the question was asked, I think Biden answered it anyway years ago in his story of taking the senate oath by his son's hospital bed and taking the Amtrak home from D.C. almost every night in order to be with his young sons.


In a way, though, that's the point, isn't it? His story answers some of the question but it seems we're demanding the answer to be spelled out by her personally. Which does bother me to some extent.

Don't get me wrong. I do understand that she's appeared virtually out of nowhere so there are a lot of unanswered questions that do have answered. I'm not against that. I'm simply suggesting that they can't all be answered in a day. Or a week. Which is about what it's been. More or less.

Conversely, oddly enough, some of the answers are already out there if one simply looks for them with an open mind. The Internet really is a wonderful thing. Very Happy
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bbmedos



Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 274
Location: Western Kentucky, USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I even saw where Wasilla--Sarah's hometown--is the meth capitol of the state. Not that I'm tying that in with Sarah with an H but in small towns what else is there to do?


Excuse me?

Jaw-drop.

Didn't I hear someone else make a comment along these lines earlier in the year that got him into trouble? Can't remember exactly who . . .

It'll come to me in time. Wink

And people wonder what Palin's appeal is. Hehehe.
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xina



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6635
Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To everyone else: as I've written before, while I try to be well-informed on the subject, for me, as a non-American, there is less at stake here. Obviously and unsurprisingly, this election is drawing some strong reactions and there are plenty of controversial subjects related to it. So I'm going to leave it to you guys. I've got plenty of political issues to keep me busy closer to home.[/quote]


Well, Yulie, just like so much online...blogs, message boards ect., I think it is easy to be snarky and opinionated when you are sitting in a room with a keyboard. I know it is for me. In real life, my parents and my brother are Republican. I used to be one too. The first time I voted for anyone Democrat...in my life, was for John Kerry, and as for the near future, I'm not going back. This election sets off a lot of buttons becasue there are very few gray areas. That is why, in real life, I don't discuss politics with my parents or my brother. I'm not sure they even know I'm a Dem now, although I think they have a fair idea when I change the subject, or just nod my head. The thing is, I don't want to argue with them even though I can't see what appeals to them in the Republican party anymore. My point is that the discussions here are passionate and I think if you want to continue, just know that words are easier to type than say. I'm rarely offended online and for the record, I enjoy your viewpoint.
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LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KarenS wrote:


Quote:
3. Spending on hunting vs. education: could you source your statement? This Education Week report seems to indicate that Palin has done a decent, though not brilliant, job on educational issues. Also, from the data I could find, Alaskan graduation rates are low - but not the lowest in the US (I must note that I couldn't find data from the last two years).


According to KTVF in Fairbanks, Alaska in an education report from the Alaska Commission on Post-Secondary Education, Alaska was at the bottom as reported on May 14, 2008. Actually, I am surprised at this. There are several southern states who often vie for that honor. My state included said to say.


IIRC, the state of New Jersey has the highest per student cost for education. By your analogy, since NJ spends the most, they ought to have the most highly educated students in the country ... but NJ is running 8th (the last time I looked it up). Guess what ... throwing dollars at education does absolutely nothing. It requires the dedication of the parents, the teachers, the school administrators and the students for students to receive a proper education. Parents need to instill in their children the thirst for knowledge ... and they can tie it into making a better living. The parents also need to make sure they are on top of what their schools are doing.

But, as with everything else, KarenS seems more interested in what sounds bad rather than what is real or the truth.
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Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 4223
Location: Detroit Metro

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yulie wrote:
So I'm going to leave it to you guys. I've got plenty of political issues to keep me busy closer to home.

I love hearing other opinions, even those who don't live in the US. So, Yulie, you can voice your thoughts anytime as far as I'm concerned. You do it in such a tactful way, but yet manage to say what's on your mind. As a matter of fact, you sound more knowledgeable about some things than some Americans are.

So, I agree with maggie b's observations and also with xina on your chiming in. Chime in all you want.
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Yulie



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 1149
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maggie, Xina and Tee, thanks for what you wrote. I did not put up my previous post for encouragement but I really appreciate it. That having been said, I have been feeling that it's kind of presumptuous on my part to debate American politics when I've lived elsewhere since the first Clinton administration. But I'll keep posting about other subjects Very Happy

BTW, we may be having an election of our own in a few months - I for one hope not, because there's every chance this guy will win, and he's far worse than (insert name of whatever politician you despise here).
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SH



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Re: “Womenomics” & the Palin Nomination Reply with quote

bbmedos wrote:
In a way, though, that's the point, isn't it? His story answers some of the question but it seems we're demanding the answer to be spelled out by her personally. Which does bother me to some extent.

Don't get me wrong. I do understand that she's appeared virtually out of nowhere so there are a lot of unanswered questions that do have answered. I'm not against that. I'm simply suggesting that they can't all be answered in a day. Or a week. Which is about what it's been. More or less.

Conversely, oddly enough, some of the answers are already out there if one simply looks for them with an open mind. The Internet really is a wonderful thing. Very Happy


I hear you, but perhaps you might also consider my side of the story: I, who watched both conventions for the first time only this year, heard of Biden's story for the first time during the DNC. My impression of the RNC was that preciously little was said of Palin, to the point that I wondered whether this was done purposely to create some air of mystery. I've been searching for days for more information (and I verify what I found at factcheck.org) but I didn't find much until these past two days. My frustration is pretty much the opposite of yours: a fresh new face was introduced but not much information was laid out by the introducer. At the end, those who ask questions are scolded for not asking the right questions.
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