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Scandal Wears Satin, Loretta Chase
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2498

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Anne_Gresley: I wasn't basing my post on Lord of Scoundrels alone, but rather the majority of Chase's novels, although I do think Jessica is unusually manipulative in that book. Misandry is probably too strong a term to indicate what I see in a number of Chase's books. Probably a low opinion of men or men's ability or, more accurately, the idea that they are essentially children would prevail.

No, I don't give too much credence to the ideas in Wylie's book, but the relationships in Chase's books often bring that book to mind. A number of Chase's heroes seem to be what in modern parlance would be called "p--y-whipped," and perhaps that does reflect the condition of a number of m/f relationships in RL.
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PWNN



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 912

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that Dain is emasculated - by the middle of the book he's practically in a fetal position and suicidal when his mommy/shooter/Jessica isn't there to tell him what to do. But I don't find that to be the norm in Chase's books.

Yes Chase has several strong minded and sometimes manipulative heroines - Devil's Delilah, Lord Of Scoundrels, The Mad Earl’s Bride, Last Night's Scandal, Don't Tempt Me but she has several strong minded and sometimes manipulative heroes as well - Knave's Wager, Captives Of the Night, The English Witch. There are also those with both - Your Scandalous Ways, The Hellion and neither Not Quite A Lady & Miss Wonderful and yes Lord Perfect where Bathsheba is a pretty straight shooter as is the hero and they both work together until one scene near the end when she lets her inner Delucey out.

In the books where there is a stronger and or manipulative personality the other party is usually also strong - as was Dain before he collapsed under the force of Jessica's supposed know it all perfection. . Part of the fun of Chase's books is the sparking of intellect between mostly mature adults. Even where the hero is supposedly not as smart as the heroine - like Rupert - he's shown to be far more clever than the heroine suspects and more than holds his own.
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Eliza



Joined: 21 Aug 2011
Posts: 1093

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PWNN wrote:
... Part of the fun of Chase's books is the sparking of intellect between mostly mature adults. Even where the hero is supposedly not as smart as the heroine - like Rupert - he's shown to be far more clever than the heroine suspects and more than holds his own.


I see it that way too.


Last edited by Eliza on Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chris booklover



Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 315
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
Chase makes no bones about describing several of her heroes as short on mental ability; they are often characterized as almost puerile. Whether the heroes are strong or weak, the heroine's "take care" of them, doing what they think is "best" for them. She seems in many books to look upon the heroes as children. Even when their mental capacities are at least average, the heroine's "manage" them, as with Jessica in Lord of Scoundrels, Olivia in Last Night's Scandal, and to some extent Bathsheba in Lord Perfect. One of the reasons I've always disliked Lord of Scoundrels is that it always brought to mind Philip Wylie's "Generation of Vipers," a chilling suggestion that women--mothers in particular--managed to emasculate their sons' psyches, as, in my reading of the book, Jessica did to Dain. Even the duel in that book was, in the end, a manipulation.


I've seen this dynamic at work in many of Chase's novels. Her heroes are usually, although not always, weak and ineffectual. It's certainly possible to have a strong and smart heroine without depicting a weak hero. I just don't think that Chase succeeds in doing so very often, or even that she tries very hard to achieve this.
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2498

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@PWNN: Oh, I laugh at her books as well; I appreciate the wit. But while doing so, I'm thinking all the while that, were I that hero, I'd skedaddle a far piece from that heroine.
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Chris Booklover: Right on. You said it better than I.
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Susan/DC



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1663

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another case of different strokes: I totally disagree with dick and chrisbooklover on this one. I don't think any of Chase's heroes are emasculated at all, nor are they stupid or weak. Rupert, for example, unlike Daphne, was not an intellectual, but he had the strength and intelligence to get them out of several tight spots on their adventures in Egypt. Longmore may have only one thing on his mind, but he is completely comfortable in his own skin. He does not let himself be manipulated except at those times when he is smart enough to know that Sophy has more experience or expertise. I think it takes a strong man to acknowledge and respect a strong woman, and Chase's heroes are exactly that.
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Eliza



Joined: 21 Aug 2011
Posts: 1093

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Susan/DC wrote:
Another case of different strokes: I totally disagree with dick and chrisbooklover on this one. I don't think any of Chase's heroes are emasculated at all, nor are they stupid or weak. Rupert, for example, unlike Daphne, was not an intellectual, but he had the strength and intelligence to get them out of several tight spots on their adventures in Egypt. Longmore may have only one thing on his mind, but he is completely comfortable in his own skin. He does not let himself be manipulated except at those times when he is smart enough to know that Sophy has more experience or expertise. I think it takes a strong man to acknowledge and respect a strong woman, and Chase's heroes are exactly that.


well said


Last edited by Eliza on Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Anne_Gresley



Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:01 am    Post subject: Scandal Wears Satin Reply with quote

Susan/DC wrote:
Another case of different strokes: I totally disagree with dick and chrisbooklover on this one. I don't think any of Chase's heroes are emasculated at all, nor are they stupid or weak.


On the whole, I disagree too. I do see where they're coming from with Dain, though. Personally, I didn't think he was emasculated, but I think he starts the book as a wounded man-child. By the end, he's finally becoming something approaching an adult. It sounds like I don't like him or the book, but I really do.

I haven't read the latest Chase yet. It's next in the pile. Reviews seem pretty polarized, so who knows? Maybe I'll agree with dick on this one.
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