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Tee



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 4225
Location: Detroit Metro

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me that the issue really boils down to one thing. It's not the building of the mosque, but the location. Most agree they have the right to erect it, but are questioning the location so close to the 9/11 site. Is that right or wrong? How can we say that the feelings of people so soon after (yes, it is still "soon after) such an event are right or wrong? They're feelings; that's what they are. Maybe the site could be moved further away. Maybe it could be postponed for a couple more years. I don't live in New York, but if something like this had happened here, I think that the details would still be vivid in my mind.

Once again, the heels are digging in from both sides and force people to take a stand. Maybe a couple years' wait would cool both sides (and maybe not), but these feelings won't go away by magic without giving some respect to many very sensitive objections. If one wants respect, they need to give it in return.
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@LizE:

You're right. All those incidents require sensitivity to the feelings of others, the idea that humans should treat others humanely.

But I'm not sure exactly what you intend in your post. Are you saying the arguments I presented were invalid? Or are you implying that I'm insensitive because I didn't bring those incidents into this discussion? If so, that's ad hominem. You have no way of knowing how I respond to such incidents.
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maryskl



Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 354
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
@LizE:

You're right. All those incidents require sensitivity to the feelings of others, the idea that humans should treat others humanely.

But I'm not sure exactly what you intend in your post. Are you saying the arguments I presented were invalid? Or are you implying that I'm insensitive because I didn't bring those incidents into this discussion? If so, that's ad hominem. You have no way of knowing how I respond to such incidents.


I think you are hedging a bit on this comment Dick. I think it is quite clear what LizE is implying...that the discussion is too one-sided. Those who do not want the mosque built claim empathy as their rationale, but I have yet to see an article or blog from the detractors who acknowledge that the USA has some blame in the poor relations between Islamic countries and our country. It is a matter of "do as I say" and not "do as I do." Did you know that this endeavor was an inter-faith one with Jewish leaders also on board? Did you know that the site has been being used for worship for over a year?

I though Mayor Bloomberg was right on target with this:
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2010/08/bloomberg-stands-up-for-mosque.html

We can continue to be bitter or we can attempt to find some common ground and healing that will hopefully result in making the world a safer place. Until we can find some way to respect the rights of everyone to worship as they choose, then religious disagreements and wars will continue to plague us.
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LizE



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 253

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Dick--I didn't mean to imply that I know how you feel, just that this whole issue is being viewed with tunnel-vision.

Look, I think we can all agree that Muslims in general had nothing to do with 9/11. But nine years later, we still expect them to keep in their place, which is out of sight of non-Muslim Americans who might be offended by the sight of them. Oh, they didn't do it--heaven forbid anyone suggest such a thing!--but we feel quite justified in demanding that moderate Muslims condemn the terrorists again and again and again, and get very annoyed with them if they don't comply.

But 9/11 was not an isolated event that can be frozen in time. It sparked invasions of multiple Muslim countries--a wide-ranging war on "terror" which our own president referred to as a crusade, a word fraught with religious overtones. The Dept. of Defense used biblical quotes and images in their briefings on the war. Erik Prince used the same language to the mercenaries who shot down Iraqi civilians--including children--in broad daylight. The Iraqis were not allowed to prosecute these American mercenaries, so they came home and walked away on a technicality from what many believe was a rigged trial.

Where are the moderate Christians standing up to condemn those who kill the innocent in the name of their religion? Where are the moderate Americans protesting the murder of pregnant women and school children? Where are the cries for our government to investigate the alleged war crimes revealed by WikiLeaks?

There are very few such voices, and they're drowned out by the people screaming for more Muslim sensitivity. The fact that the US is almost certainly guilty of war crimes--not ones committed in the past, but ones going on right now--doesn't seem to concern or even interest the average American in the least.

That's the parallel I was making, Dick. Didn't mean to pick on you particularly.
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KarenS



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 870
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I support the Ground Zero mosque which is actually the mosque that's two really big blocks away from ground zero. If we're into sensitivity we should be concerned with the other businesses ie. strip clubs that are literally across the street from ground zero. But that's another discussion. Actually strip clubs don't bother me but should be a concern of those that are opposing the ground zero mosque but why aren't they?

The First Amendment is a beautiful thing. Something that all Americans should really be thankful for and respectful of.

What bothers me the most about Islam is that it's a religion that's really in need of a reformation. The women of Islam need to put their feet down and tell the men to get real. They need to throw off their burkas and create change. It's a religion that's way too patriarchal and anti-women. I think some of their extremists who are similar to Christian and Jewish extremists need to have some yin-yang balance in their lives.
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Lee



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, Hasidic Jews, some Hindus and the Amish also require what some would consider restrictive clothing. Should we advocate them to overthrow their religious hierarchies and demand change? Or should we respect their religious differences and leave them be? As a US Catholic, I remember when all women had to wear a head covering in church, and some nun's habits are still very restrictive.
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LizE



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 253

PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are there any major religions that aren't patriarchal and anti-woman?

maryskl, interesting speech Bloomberg made. Thanks for the link. He's right, but I really don't think the building of a single mosque will do a whole lot to heal relations with Muslim countries as long as we continue to invade, bomb and occupy them. I see the mosque as a Constitutional issue, and in that light important to all Americans.

The Koran burning was another Constitutional issue, blown way out of proportion by the media for reasons I still don't quite understand. All the people who tried to stop him don't seem to get what free speech is about. And the ones who say they're all for free speech--as long as it's ______ (respectful, not offensive to the religion or beliefs of others, whatever) are the most dangerous of all, because on the surface what they're saying sounds reasonable. It's nice to wish that we could all be kind and respectful and get along, but it's not realistic and it has nothing to do with free speech. I'm with Voltaire on this one.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
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