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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2477

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:12 am    Post subject: Ya' know... Reply with quote

I'm pretty much in sympathy with the groups that want to keep the mosque from being sited near ground zero. Seems a rather tacky thing for the Muslims to do, don't you think? It certainly shows very little empathy.
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jebe



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 821
Location: Jersey

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They had all kinds of local coverage on the NY/NJ channels on how it's meant to be a sign of how religions can help in the healing process and coexist peaceably, etc. Great in concept, but I really don't think we're at that point and I definitely don't think one block from Ground Zero is the place to start. I had the child of a deceased 9/11 firefighter in my class this past year and I just really think that we can never forget the price some families paid. It's not the time and it's certainly not the place.
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Lee



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dick - good topic

Hi Jebe - I'm not in NY so could you elaborate on the reasons the board in charge of letting them build allowed it. Is it a building that would otherwise be an eyesore?

FWIW, I think in this country, it goes to the very heart of freedom of religion to allow the mosque to be built. A city block is a goodly distance. I don't think ANYTHING should be built on the actual site of the Twin Towers - that should be a memorial. The new tower will be yet another target for fanatics to prove something. Of course, everyone understands why so many people are against the mosque being built. Tolerance is not always easy, but it's really the only way to live.
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JaneO



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mosque can be built there, of course. There is no doubt about that. However, it is intended as a sort of healing gesture, and I fear it is nothing of the sort. The fact that it is legally permitted does not mean it is a good idea.

9/11 is still close for me I had relatives and friends there, though none were killed, and I know people who did lose family members. I do not think of the mosque as an insult or an offense, but it does bother me.
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jebe



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
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Location: Jersey

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee wrote:
Hi Jebe - I'm not in NY so could you elaborate on the reasons the board in charge of letting them build allowed it. Is it a building that would otherwise be an eyesore?


There is no reason why the town can't allow it, it's just of matter of Ground Zero being a sensitive place.

Quote:
Tolerance is not always easy, but it's really the only way to live.


I think this concept is being pressed upon the very people that have had to tolerate enough already. Why can't the Muslim community be a little more tolerant themselves and realize that maybe a few more blocks uptown would've been a little bit better of a spot for healing and tolerance?
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Lee



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I meant was, knowing the kind of outrage that would follow allowing the mosque to be built, the board must have stated on the record their reasons for allowing it.

I don't know why this site was picked and not one a few more blocks uptown. Maybe NYC should have banned all religious organizations from building in a 2 block radius. But in this country we allow a "Christian" minister to heckle mourners outside of military funerals, the KKK to hold public meetings and Nazi sympathizers to march in parades. I think it is especially important in times like this, when hatred against Muslims is so high, to guarantee the freedoms we hold so dear.

FWIW, I too have relatives in NYC. My cousin's bus stop was at the WTC, and she was in her bus on the way there when the first plane hit. I lived through the horror too. But I truly fear we can not just take away our hard won freedoms because something bothers us, even when it's of this magnitude. But I certainly understand the other viewpoint.
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JaneO



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What I meant was, knowing the kind of outrage that would follow allowing the mosque to be built, the board must have stated on the record their reasons for allowing it.

No one had to precisely allow it. There are no grounds for refusing it. There was nothing about the building it will replace that could have justified the landmarks commission in slapping a preservation order on it.
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Lee



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But there are zoning regulations and preservation committees, etc., that must approve changes of use to buildings. I saw brief footage from one such meeting on the national news, but didn't get to see what kind of meeting it was and didn't know if anyone had any further info.

But this might all be moot, as it seems that a conservative group has now filed suit to block the building of the mosque.
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2477

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it has much to do with freedom of religion. As I said in the opening post, it demonstrates a marked lack of empathy. Persevering, almost demanding, that the the mosque be situated where it is, despite the protests, suggests they intend to disregard everything but their own wishes. It doesn't show much "reconciliation" in my thinking.
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Lee



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, like I said above, if they outlawed all religions from building there, I'd see no religious discrimination. But to target just Muslims, how is that not infringing on religious freedom?

The hijackers were radical Islamic fundamentalists. They were also mostly from Saudi Arabia. Should we blame all Muslims and all Saudis for the actions of these crazy few? And what would be a "respectful" distance from the WTC site? Three city blocks, 4, 10? Should we not allow any mosques in NYC at all? Any reconciliation that will take place involves more than the actions of one party.

I don't think any New Yorker, or American, was overjoyed to hear that a mosque would be built there. I'm not. But fortunately for all of us, the protections provided by the US Constitution cannot be changed by emotion. As John Adams said, we are a government of laws, not men.
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I don't see what it has to do with the fact it's Muslims building a religious buildings. I think most people would probably "feel" the same way were it Chinamen building a pagoda had it been Chinamen who attacked on 9/11. It's akin to a man who insists on attending the wedding, uninvited, of a woman he left waiting at the altar, stating he's attending to reconcile--poor manners, bad taste, whatever, a marked lack of sensitivity to others' points of view.
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Lee



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fine, Dick, if you don't see religious discrimination in play here, nothing I say is gonna change your mind. To reiterate what I said before, yeah, I can see where people are going to find this offensive. And I agree that it's insensitive to the extent that all Muslims are sharing the blame for 9/11. But what do you propose to do about it? I see and hear a lot of things that offend me, but I defend their right to do and say what they want, within the confines of the law. And that protects my rights too. And yours.
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, obviously, the rejoinder goes both ways. If you insist on seeing religious discrimination, nothing I say will change your mind. I do not insist that those who are Muslim be seen as a religious group as you seem to do. I'm stating that as human beings, regardless of what religious tenets they hold, they should show consideration for feelings that events beyond both groups' control brought about. I don't think anybody's right to follow any faith they choose is going to be harmed if those wishing to build the mosque accede to the wishes of those who protest it. Reconciliation can be sought anywhere; neither a mosque nor a church in a specific place is required to achieve it.
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Lee



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, Dick. You seem very upset over my opinion on this and I certainly didn't intend that. I thought you put this question out there for an airing of both sides of the issue. I'll bow out now. (And, just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not going away mad).
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2477

PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need to apologize. I wasn't upset. I was merely pointing out that we see the issue from two different points of view and that, if I am convinced of the point of view I'm taking, so also are you. Why else would you have posted? Why else would I have?
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