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Schola
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867
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 Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: Caveat Lector! |
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+IHS+
Did you know that if a drunk or insane person gets shot, he just keeps running until he passes out from blood loss or whatever? On the other hand, if a normal person gets shot, he drops to the ground immediately. It has nothing to do with the impact or the pain, but everything to do with seeing how people on TV and the movies react to being shot.
I remembered this a few weeks ago, when an older and married friend brought up her problem with Romance novels. Along with Romantic Comedies and TV shows, she says, they condition readers to react in certain ways that have nothing to do with the reality of things. Her point, as briefly as I can make it, was:
Romance novels--and many Romantic movies, TV shows, etc.--make a woman think she is entitled to orgasms every time she has sex with the man she loves, which means that she should say yes to sex only when she is feeling orgasmic. Yet the reality is that sometimes a woman can enjoy having sex with her husband even if only her husband climaxes at the end. Unfortunately, modern media lies about that--because it isn't "romantic"--and condition a woman to hide behind a "headaches" when she does want to be physically affectionate ("Let's just cuddle tonight.") but doesn't think she'd be able to muster an orgasm yet. Then, should her husband persist or feel hurt, she'd feel resentment--another conditioned response.
My friend added that a successful sex life doesn't mean an equivalent number of orgasms on both sides, because that doesn't reflect the way men and women are designed. Yet the way romantic love is presented all over the media these days brainwashes modern women into having the same wrong ideas about sex that we all now have about being shot.
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"To be in a romance is to be in uncongenial surroundings. To be born into this earth is to be born into uncongenial surroundings, hence to be born into a romance." (G.K. Chesterton) |
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Natalie
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 1566
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| Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree. No one expects an equivalent number of orgasms. However, they've been studies that show that if a woman doesn't have orgasms most of the times she loses most of her interest in sex. And I can attest from my own experience that it's true: after I started having orgasms on a consistent basis my husband got laid more often  So the media is not lying in this case. What they're lying about (or rather, romanticize) is that sex is always perfect and your partner always knows what exactly what you want (and we're not talking about paranormals here). |
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Cora
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 1088
Location: Bremen, Germany
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| Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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The vast majority of people know that the sex portrayed in romance novels and in certain films and TV shows is pure fantasy and that it doesn't work that way in real life. I knew that even before I had firsthand experience in that matter.
As for orgasms, I don't think any woman expects the multi-orgasmic nights of passion found in certain romance novels, simply because those are not realistic. However, if a woman never or hardly ever achieves an orgasm with her partner, there is something wrong. Maybe I have just been very lucky in that regard, but it works out for me the vast majority of the time.
And when I hear of women who supposedly never have an orgasm, I can only think, "Girl, ditch the idiot, since he obviously has no idea what he's doing." And if romance novels or certain films - unrealistic as the depictions of sex usually are, e.g. if screaming like the people on TV was required in reality, I have never had a proper orgasm - tell those women that there is something they are missing on a regular basis, then I don't have a problem with that.
As for insane or drunk people continuing to run after they have been shot, maybe it's just that they don't feel the pain. Because even though you could probably run/walk for a bit, sitting/lying down and getting some rest seems like the far better course of action, if you've been shot. |
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Amanda
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 289
Location: the midwest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Schola,
I love your posts! 
As for your friend, though, one of the great things about romances is that it reminds me of how sexy sex is and I take that to the bedroom with me too! I may go into sex with an orgasm on the agenda, but I think I'm more likely to get one since I'm more enthusiastic about the whole business. Most of sex is in the brain and I think a lot of the sucess or failure of it is dependent upon the expectations of the partners invloved. |
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ladynaava
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 938
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:26 am Post subject: Re: Caveat Lector! |
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I don't think romance novels alone are the sole purveyor of mis-information if that is indeed what this is.
Watching a horror film you might believe all women will trip when being chased by the evil bad serial killer/clown/demonic entity. =-)
And we all know that aint true.
In general, I don't find sex without orgasm to be that fun to read about. It doesn't have to be immeadiate (in fact mutual orgasm seems kind of over-done), but well, the hero should care enough see the heroine satisfied as well. |
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Schola
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Amanda wrote: | Schola,
I love your posts! |
Thanks, Amanda.
| Amanda wrote: | | As for your friend, though, one of the great things about romances is that it reminds me of how sexy sex is and I take that to the bedroom with me too! I may go into sex with an orgasm on the agenda, but I think I'm more likely to get one since I'm more enthusiastic about the whole business. Most of sex is in the brain and I think a lot of the sucess or failure of it is dependent upon the expectations of the partners invloved. |
Wouldn't it be ironic, at least in the context of this discussion, if Romances also conditioned women to be more orgasmic?
Anyway, my friend is actually a counsellor and she has several women clients who were shocked to discover that falling in love doesn't make one as orgasmic as a Romance heroine. Her private and professional experience has convinced her that women have been conditioned into thinking that they should have sex only when they feel orgasmic, which actually shouldn't be the case. Sometimes a woman is happy to engage in only heavy petting while the man goes all the way, but modern media makes it seem like a woman is entitled to a climax whenever she lies with a man.
It's a totally new idea for me, which is why I've brought it up for discussion.
_________________
"To be in a romance is to be in uncongenial surroundings. To be born into this earth is to be born into uncongenial surroundings, hence to be born into a romance." (G.K. Chesterton) |
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Natalie
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 1566
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| And why shouldn't women be entitled to have orgasms every time? After all, orgasm is an immediate goal of a sexual activity. Sure, you can feel pleasure without it, but without consistently achieving climax it getting to be frustrating very quickly. |
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Natalie
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 1566
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Schola wrote: |
Anyway, my friend is actually a counsellor and she has several women clients who were shocked to discover that falling in love doesn't make one as orgasmic as a Romance heroine. Her private and professional experience has convinced her that women have been conditioned into thinking that they should have sex only when they feel orgasmic, which actually shouldn't be the case. Sometimes a woman is happy to engage in only heavy petting while the man goes all the way, but modern media makes it seem like a woman is entitled to a climax whenever she lies with a man. |
It just means they don't learn their bodies properly (and don't make their men do it). No offense to your friend, but every woman is capable of having an orgasm so why should we be content without it? They've been enough attempts to repress female sexuality in the past (still happening now in many places), we should be glad to live in the age when female pleasure is considered the norm rather than an aberration! |
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Schola
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't spoken to her about everyone's feedback yet--and have no idea how she'll react when I say I posted it on a Romance message board  --but I can say that she's not anti-female-orgasm or anything. She's more anti-saying-you-have-a-headache-when-you-really-don't-just-because-you-don't-feel-like-you-can-have-an-orgasm.
_________________
"To be in a romance is to be in uncongenial surroundings. To be born into this earth is to be born into uncongenial surroundings, hence to be born into a romance." (G.K. Chesterton) |
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Elizabeth Rolls
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1026
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Watching a horror film you might believe all women will trip when being chased by the evil bad serial killer/clown/demonic entity. =-)
And we all know that aint true. |
Lady Naava, we are all dying to hear about your experience in being chased by any or all of the above. 
Come on - tell us!
There may well be some truth in drunk/insane people not dropping when shot. Think of Viking Berserkers - from the accounts I've read even if they were mortally wounded those warriors just kept on going when the battle madness was on them. Not quite sure how that would work if one was drunk, though.
As for unrealistic expectations of sex, I'm not sure that it is a bad thing at all for a woman to expect that her partner will take the time to please her. Sure a couple might have to work at it a bit and if that is part of the story then that's fine - show it. I actually did that with the book I have coming out next year, because I just couldn't see the pair of them getting it right the first time. But that became a very story/character/situation specific thing. I don't necessarily want to do it every time. Also, depending on the story you may only have time for them to make love once or twice. In that case I think it is more important to establish that the physical relationship between the couple is a good one. Just my thoughts. Let's face it, we are writing/reading a story. How many couples meet because of a serial killer, dodgy will, evil half-brother etc? I like an element of fantasy and over-the-top action in my romance. I never cease to be amazed by the people who tell me what a marvellous romance they or a couple they know had - no arguments, no problems, no conflict. Just a succession of lovely dates and mutual understanding. They always look a bit puzzled when I ask them where the story is hiding.
Elizabeth |
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Amanda
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 289
Location: the midwest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Schola wrote: | | I haven't spoken to her about everyone's feedback yet--and have no idea how she'll react when I say I posted it on a Romance message board --but I can say that she's not anti-female-orgasm or anything. She's more anti-saying-you-have-a-headache-when-you-really-don't-just-because-you-don't-feel-like-you-can-have-an-orgasm. |
I've been pondering this thread the last couple of days. This is going to come off as very anti-feminist, but I'm anti-turning-down-sex. I'm thinking about the married ladies here. Too many women have sex constantly with their boyfriends then get married and have 'headaches' for their husbands. That's false advertising. Several of my girlfriends react with disgust when the subject of sex comes up in relation to their husbands, but I remember when they thought it was amazing when those same men were their boyfriends. Nothing changed.
I've been married 11 years and we had three kids in three years. There was a l-o-n-g period of time when I wasn't in the mood and was too tired to even consider sex a good idea. I don't remember much from that period of time, but do remember always being pleasantly surprised by how much fun sex was once we got started.
I don't think romances or romantic comedies are the problem. I think it's a throw back to earlier generations where sex was for procreation and nothing more. I think too many women think they won the prize and they don't have to continue to perform, hence the headaches. |
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Magnolia88
Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 229
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Amanda wrote: | | I'm thinking about the married ladies here. Too many women have sex constantly with their boyfriends then get married and have 'headaches' for their husbands. That's false advertising. |
Then there are the men who were all into kissing and foreplay . . . before the wedding. And after, it's "cut to the chase."
I've never been married but I have had more than one friend tell me that her husband seems a lot less interested in "fooling around" after they got married. Cause they're married, so why bother with all that kissing and stuff when they know how it's going to end?  That's false advertising also. Maybe these married women with "headaches" would be more interested if their husbands devoted more time to warming them up and getting them in the mood. |
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HeatherB
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Magnolia88 wrote:
| Quote: | | I've never been married but I have had more than one friend tell me that her husband seems a lot less interested in "fooling around" after they got married. Cause they're married, so why bother with all that kissing and stuff when they know how it's going to end? That's false advertising also. Maybe these married women with "headaches" would be more interested if their husbands devoted more time to warming them up and getting them in the mood. |
Gosh...this is probably way too much information, but here goes anyway. In my experience (of course it would have to be wouldn't it), married sex, or maybe I really mean older sex (because I'm older/married 10 years), is better. First, I am more comfortable with my dh. Second, I know him, he knows me and we both know what the other likes or wants. Third, I am not worried about (or embarassed) telling him what I want and vice versa. My point: married sex isn't all bad.
Amanda wrote:
| Quote: | I've been married 11 years and we had three kids in three years. There was a l-o-n-g period of time when I wasn't in the mood and was too tired to even consider sex a good idea. I don't remember much from that period of time, but do remember always being pleasantly surprised by how much fun sex was once we got started.
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I remember those days and not being in the mood. And you're right, it was fun once you got started. It was just getting started that was the problem. I'm glad those tired days are done.
Elizabeth Rolls wrote:
| Quote: | | As for unrealistic expectations of sex, I'm not sure that it is a bad thing at all for a woman to expect that her partner will take the time to please her. Sure a couple might have to work at it a bit and if that is part of the story then that's fine - show it. I actually did that with the book I have coming out next year, because I just couldn't see the pair of them getting it right the first time. |
I agree completely. To me, this is real life and practice makes perfect and all the fun's in the practice.
Now that I've shared way too much....
AAR Heather
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maggie b.
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 2252
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| HeatherB wrote: |
Gosh...this is probably way too much information, but here goes anyway. In my experience (of course it would have to be wouldn't it), married sex, or maybe I really mean older sex (because I'm older/married 10 years), is better. First, I am more comfortable with my dh. Second, I know him, he knows me and we both know what the other likes or wants. Third, I am not worried about (or embarassed) telling him what I want and vice versa. My point: married sex isn't all bad. |
Thanks for sharing. And I agree. I think sometimes knowledge of a partner can enhance and it definitely helps when you are no longer embarrassed to be vocal about what you want/need.
| HeatherB wrote: | Elizabeth Rolls wrote:
| Quote: | | As for unrealistic expectations of sex, I'm not sure that it is a bad thing at all for a woman to expect that her partner will take the time to please her. Sure a couple might have to work at it a bit and if that is part of the story then that's fine - show it. I actually did that with the book I have coming out next year, because I just couldn't see the pair of them getting it right the first time. |
I agree completely. To me, this is real life and practice makes perfect and all the fun's in the practice. |
Regarding what the counselor said, I think she may have a point in saying that if one or the other partner is in the mood and the second partner isn't there can be definite emotional satisfaction gained from accommodation of the other's wants/needs. I don't think that the denial of doing this is actually something that can be blamed on romance novels/romantic comedies though. I can remember one friend who told her husband that one reason she didn't have sex is that she would come home from work, clean, cook help kids with homework etc. while he watched TV and she was tired and in no mood to accommodate someone who hadn't helped her. They worked out splitting the work load at home and it improved their sex lives a lot.
I would imagine that sometimes a woman may not feel orgasmic is that there are problems in the relationship which are keeping her from feeling at all romantic towards her partner.
maggie b. |
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Schola
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Just today, I came across a blog comment by a woman who was basically echoing what Amanda and HeatherB have been saying. She related how she reached a point in her marriage where she realised how demoralising it was to her husband to be turned down because she wasn't in the mood; and from that moment on, she resolved to treat him like he was the sexiest man on earth. (Her words, not mine!  )
What gave it an interesting twist was that she found that reading Romance novels could help get her in the mood--because, you know, a woman and a man are not always on the same frequency. So even as she advises new wives never to turn their husbands down, if they can help it, she recommends Romances to help them out. 
_________________
"To be in a romance is to be in uncongenial surroundings. To be born into this earth is to be born into uncongenial surroundings, hence to be born into a romance." (G.K. Chesterton) |
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