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KayWebbHarrison
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 1206
Location: SE VA. USA
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 Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| tirlittan wrote: |
I know very little about medicine, but doesn't aspirin and(?) salisylic acid also help the bloodflow/prevent blood from clodding? (I think you can give an aspirin to a person who is having a heart attack as a first-aid if there are no nitros at hand) I'd think that that would make the willow bark tea even dangerous to use in a situation where the (historical) patient needs painrelief for pain from large open wounds/surgery.
As for other painkillers, there's always the whiskey/vodka/moonshine to serve. Though there too there are certain known side-effects. 
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Yes, aspirin does have blood-thinning, anti-coagulant properties. I take one 81mg aspirin a day for that reason; I have atherosclerosis, hardening of the arteries. When I had a gum graft, the dentist was worried that the aspirin I had taken might keep a clot from forming. Fortunately, the blood clotted normally.
I think that old-time "medical practitioners" used alcoholic preparations more to clean wounds on the surface than for internal ingestion. Although some probably had patients drinking them to deaden them to pain.
Was the pitch for cauterizing wounds?
Kay |
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tirlittan
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 213
Location: Northern Finland
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| KayWebbHarrison wrote: |
Was the pitch for cauterizing wounds?
Kay |
First, the "tar" in the saying means specifically pine tar. From a quick look at wikipedia, I gather it was traditionally used mainly in skincare, but also as an antibacterial (though of course bacters were not known of at the time) substance on wounds, amputated and bandaged limbs etc. It was used cold, (a part of a mixture) spread on the wound. But I guess it isn't out of the realm of possibilities for hot tar to have been used to cauterize wounds also. Though if it was used as such there woud have to be some way of cooling it fast, wouldn't there? You wouldn't want to cause severe burns to healthy tissue.
Pine tar was (and to some extent still is) a very popular ingredient here in different kinds of soaps, salves and ointments. Even candy and liquor.
It was also used to fend off lice: they would spread some sort of mixture with tar in it on your scalp and leave it to dry for a few days to kill the lice. :lol:
Pine and spruce pitch, or resin, was also widely used as an antibacterial in treating wounds. I remember listening to a radio show about folk medicines, where every caller seemed to have their own recipe for a spruce resin ointment to treat wounds. Apparently the Finnish National Agency for Medicines (~eqiuvalent of the FDA) has also approved spruce resin ointment for sale in Finland.
There are also archaeological finds from Finnish stoneage settlements of resin with teethmarks on it. A stoneage equivalent to chewing gum, it has been suggested, though resin has several uses (as a glue-like substance for instance) in making different kinds of tools and artefacts, also, so those finds could have been left over from processing (chewing) resin in order to make it more pliable in making tools.
T
ETA: Isn't alcohol also used in medicines as a solvent, or to extract the (medically) useful elements from plants etc.? |
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KayWebbHarrison
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 1206
Location: SE VA. USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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The "pitch/tar" I was thinking of is the black kind used to caulk wooden ships and to pave roads. I didn't even think of "pine tar" which makes a lot more sense! LOL I read a lot of Horatio Hornblower stories and other similar ones in my teens. Somehow I have an image of someone using heated black tar for amputation stubs, but I may be mixing up several things, including the tar and feathering scene from the John Adams miniseries from earlier this year.
I know nothing about alcohol as part of medicines, except for the kinds that used to be peddled in medicine shows long ago.
Kay |
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gumbybird
Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Posts: 117
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| tirlittan wrote: | | I know very little about medicine, but doesn't aspirin and(?) salisylic acid also help the bloodflow/prevent blood from clodding? (I think you can give an aspirin to a person who is having a heart attack as a first-aid if there are no nitros at hand) I'd think that that would make the willow bark tea even dangerous to use in a situation where the (historical) patient needs painrelief for pain from large open wounds/surgery. |
Interesting point! As KayWebbHarrison said, aspirin is an anti-coagulant, and at very small doses too (1/100th of the painkiller dose can be taken to prevent blood clots). So conceivably there would be enough in a tea-strength dose to potentially act that way. But first, it wouldn't already be in their system at the time of the wound and it doesn't work immediately like nitro, so I wouldn't think it would generally make a difference in an acutely hemorrhaging patient. (But I'm a vet, not a physician - I only know how it works in dogs and cats, not people!) And second, Cora pointed out that aspirin and the salicylic acid found in willow bark are slightly different chemicals. Is salicylic acid (rather than the acetyl salicylic acid of aspirin) also an anti-coagulant?
What an interesting thread this is... |
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tirlittan
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 213
Location: Northern Finland
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| gumbybird wrote: |
Interesting point! As KayWebbHarrison said, aspirin is an anti-coagulant, and at very small doses too (1/100th of the painkiller dose can be taken to prevent blood clots). So conceivably there would be enough in a tea-strength dose to potentially act that way. But first, it wouldn't already be in their system at the time of the wound and it doesn't work immediately like nitro, so I wouldn't think it would generally make a difference in an acutely hemorrhaging patient. (But I'm a vet, not a physician - I only know how it works in dogs and cats, not people!) |
That is interesting. Good to know... I might have gotten the heart attac reference from House, or something  :lol:
| gumbybird wrote: | | And second, Cora pointed out that aspirin and the salicylic acid found in willow bark are slightly different chemicals. Is salicylic acid (rather than the acetyl salicylic acid of aspirin) also an anti-coagulant? |
Some facts about salisylic acid from wikipedia(the *easiest* place to start with ):
"It is poorly soluble in water (0.2 g/100 ml H2O at 20°C)"
Wouldn't that make the classic willow bark tea a poor choise in administering it? Though "tea" could be used here as a more generic term, and there is of course seldom anything said about the strength of the tea, as you said.
ETA: On second thought, though: the above didn't say much about the actual potency of salicylic acid, 200 milligrams (as in that example above) might be plenty to cure a headache, and too much might be deadly... It may also of course be more soluble to hot water, plus it is propably quite a lot easier to swallow it mixed in a liquid than as powder. And for fever patients it is of course important to drink a lot to prevent dehydration, so tea is good for that reason also.
"The Greek physician Hippocrates wrote in the 5th century BC about a bitter powder extracted from willow bark that could ease aches and pains and reduce fevers. This remedy was also mentioned in texts from ancient Sumer, Lebanon, and Assyria. The Cherokee and other Native Americans used an infusion of the bark for fever and other medicinal purposes for centuries.[4] The medicinal part of the plant is the inner bark and was used as a pain reliever for a variety of ailments. The Reverend Edward (Edmund) Stone, a vicar from Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, England, noted in 1763 that the bark of the willow was effective in reducing a fever. "
"Salicylic acid was also isolated from the herb meadowsweet (Filipendula ulmaria, formerly classified as Spiraea ulmaria) by German researchers in 1839. While their extract was somewhat effective, it also caused digestive problems such as gastric irritation, bleeding, diarrhea, and even death when consumed in high doses."
"salicylic acid is a key ingredient in many skin-care products for the treatment of acne, psoriasis, calluses, corns, keratosis pilaris, and warts. It works by causing the cells of the epidermis to shed more readily, preventing pores from clogging up, and allowing room for new cell growth. Because of its effect on skin cells, salicylic acid is used in several shampoos used to treat dandruff."
"Although toxic in large quantities, salicylic acid is used as a food preservative and antiseptic in toothpaste. For some people with salicylate sensitivity even these small doses can be harmful."
| gumbybird wrote: | | What an interesting thread this is... |
I agree. And addictive, it's always fun to learn new things. :)
| KayWebbHarrison wrote: | | The "pitch/tar" I was thinking of is the black kind used to caulk wooden ships and to pave roads. I didn't even think of "pine tar" which makes a lot more sense! LOL I read a lot of Horatio Hornblower stories and other similar ones in my teens. Somehow I have an image of someone using heated black tar for amputation stubs, but I may be mixing up several things, including the tar and feathering scene from the John Adams miniseries from earlier this year. |
You're not that far off, in fact we may very well be speaking of the same thing. Apparently "tar" has several slightly different meanings in English. Pine tar was/is also used pretty much the same way to preserve wood as is tar derived from coal. (It may be that pine tar is actually the "older" one of these two.) It wasn't until quite recently in fact - towards the end of the 19th century - that it lost its place as the most common way to protect ships from the elements. (Apparently it was also quite common in Finland to coat wooden - and sometimes the metal ones too - tools with tar to make them last longer in use.) So Old Horatio would propably have plenty of access to this stuff. I've read (in historical fiction) of hot oil being used to close amputation wounds like you described, so I guess hot tar could be used in a similar way, and on board ships it might be more readily available than hot oil. I've always imagined hot tar to be very sticky though and that it stays hot for a long time, which would make it less useful in this way, but my impression could be wrong and/or the tar used could have been mixed with something else or been otherwise of a different "format" than the tar used in caulking. (My hometown is one of the many towns in Northern Finland which were basically built with and around the tar trade in the 17th century. - That's one of the reasons why I kept writing this, as OT as all of this seems to be from the original post...  ) |
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Tacilija
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 156
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| tirlittan wrote: | Some facts about salisylic acid from wikipedia(the *easiest* place to start with ):
"It is poorly soluble in water (0.2 g/100 ml H2O at 20°C)"
Wouldn't that make the classic willow bark tea a poor choise in administering it? Though "tea" could be used here as a more generic term, and there is of course seldom anything said about the strength of the tea, as you said. |
I'm not a doctor, or anything, but I understand that they made tea by boiling water, which would improve solubility of salicylic acid...wouldn't it? |
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tirlittan
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 213
Location: Northern Finland
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Tacilija wrote: | | tirlittan wrote: | Some facts about salisylic acid from wikipedia(the *easiest* place to start with ):
"It is poorly soluble in water (0.2 g/100 ml H2O at 20°C)"
Wouldn't that make the classic willow bark tea a poor choise in administering it? Though "tea" could be used here as a more generic term, and there is of course seldom anything said about the strength of the tea, as you said. |
I'm not a doctor, or anything, but I understand that they made tea by boiling water, which would improve solubility of salicylic acid...wouldn't it? |
That thought occurred to me too. A few minutes after I'd posted the message: that's when I did the ETA in the middle of the text.
But as to the question is salisylic acid more soluble to hot water? I don't know. I'd assume it could be (beware, my assumption is based on the vague recollections of highshcool chemistry I have. ) |
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Cora
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 1088
Location: Bremen, Germany
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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I seem to recall that aspirin aka acetyl-salicylic acid was specifically developed to create something with the advantages of salicylic acid (i.e. pain relief) without the disadvantages (gastric problems and bleeding).
As for the solubility of salicylic acid, the stuff that is still used today in tinctures for corns, mouthsores, etc... is either dissolved in alcohol (mouthsores) or acetone (corns) or a similar solvent, not water. And if you accidentally drop the bottle into the water (yes, it happened to me), it indeed mixes badly. Hot water would improve the solubility somewhat. Nonetheless, pickling the willow bark in alcohol would seem like a more effective way of extracting salicylic acid than boiling tea.
As for the tar issue, as a teenager I suffered from dandruff and itchy spots on my head. One of the many remedies I tried and one one the more effective ones was shampoo with birch and willow tar. Later, it turned out that the problems were caused by an allergy to common components in many commercial shampoos, which meant that extensively applying anti-dandruff shampoo actually made it worse. |
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bookbug
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 300
Location: California USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Fascinating thread! As a nurse my favorite reading is historical books on medicine and treatments!
Where to start?
Aspirin-acetyl-salicylic acid- prolongs clotting time therefore giving an aspirin if a heart attack is suspected is a great idea! After calling 911! Also using nitro tablets is good if the patient has them. You can give both! Nitro is a vaso-dialator and aspirin is a blood thinner.
Aspirin now comes "enteric-coated" to prevent upset stomach due to acidity and irritation, the stomach is highly vascular so makes it prone to bleeding, that's why people with ulcers aren't supposed to take it uncoated.
Willow bark tea is much more mild than today's aspirin, but historically would have been wonderful for fevers and aches. Wouldn't worry about traumatic injuries and bleeding, because bleeding can be controlled through direct pressure, elevation and other measures.
Extractions of beneficial properties with boiling or alcohol depends on what you want. Alcohol helps with certain medicines and adds a synergistic effect but if you don't have any on hand you would need to boil the medicine because making a tincture takes time. Alcohol is also a vaso-dialator so can help prevent gangrene.
You would not want to use alcohol if head injury because may cause increased sedation and hemorrhage in brain tissues. So boiling to extract the essence would be better.
The smart healers washed wounds with alcohol- brandy/moonshine are the best choices because of the high alcohol content- the really smart ones washed their hands in it too! :)
Tacilija wrote- I'm not a doctor, or anything, but I understand that they made tea by boiling water, which would improve solubility of salicylic acid...wouldn't it?
Yes! Boiling water STEEPS the active ingredients effectively from leaves, stems and roots.
Pine tar there are two different ideas going on here. One is the Tar portion.
When most people think of tar they think of the thick black hot stuff for roofing and fixing leaking ships. This is a great cauterizing agent for 2 reasons
1) Burns away infectious microbes
2) waterproof and seals the wound
However it has some serious drawbacks! Severe scarring possible bone infection, hard to remove if complications and horribly painful!!!
The other pine tar is in preparations to help with dandruff, psoriasis and other skin disorders. It acts by slowing growth of overactive skin cells and has some anti fungal and anti microbial properties helping the skin stay flexible and healthy.
Acetyl-salicylic acid is also in many of these same preparations for the same reasons and also acts as an astringent and exfoliant.
Have to go. Love this thread!
TTFN
bookbug 
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KayWebbHarrison
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 1206
Location: SE VA. USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Dear bookbug,
Thanks for all the great info!
Kay |
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bookbug
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 300
Location: California USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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KayWebbHarrison | Quote: | Dear bookbug,
Thanks for all the great info!
Kay |
You are more than welcome but I realize I didn't cover laudnum! Duh.
Laudnum has been widely available and easy to come by through the ages in China and Egypt where it originated and since the early middle ages in Europe and England/Scotland/Ireland.
In the Middle East, which was the center of medical learning as early as 900AD. Although they did not allow use of cadavers for anatomy due to religious reasons they had no problem utilizing previous anatomical texts from Greek and Roman doctors to do some surgeries (using syrup of poppy to sedate patients) for soldiers/people were already wounded because it was to save lives, but would not do an appendectomy for instance, because the body was whole therefore it was the will of "God".
In the more demure Victorian era they used it for "melancholy" read depression. Also there were terrible addictions to the drug after the civil war in the U.S. before it's total effects were understood.
Have to run for dinner!
TTFN
bookbug
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A good friend will help you move; a Great friend will help you move the body! |
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