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Schola
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867
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 Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| CD wrote: | | Schola wrote: | | CD wrote: | | As I assume you value the freedoms and rights that I listed, and believe that other women in the world should also enjoy them – I would say that you are a feminist in my book, if not in yours. |
I have to seriously take umbrage now, CD! I realise that you don't mean to be insulting--far from it, in fact--but find it wrong that a movement which is supposed to be about free choice won't let me make the free choice to disassociate myself from it. |
Well, I'll then umbrage on your confusing me with a movement and also suggesting that I wished to restrict your freedom of association! As I stated, I based my conclusion on assumptions - if those assumptions are false, then I apologise unreservedly. Not to get too formal logic here, I stated my premise and my assumptions - both of which anyone is obviously free to dispute. |
I see the umbrage party is now in full swing! 
It's not necessarily about association. There are many women who call themselves feminists who I'd gladly work with and call my friends. It's about who gets to name whom. While I was thinking some more about that, the following analogy came to me:
Think of a wife truly loves her husband but who does not share his last name. Some time after the wedding, he tells her, "If you really loved me and wanted to be my partner in the eyes of the world, then you'd take my name." Yet because of her personal beliefs--whatever those may be--she prefers to keep her own name. So he keeps pushing, adding, "I'm the breadwinner in this family and you benefit from all my long hours of work. How can you reap all those benefits and still distance yourself from me by refusing to take my name?"
So when you said I was "a feminist in your book," I felt as if I were the wife and you were my husband, and you had filled out all the name change forms for me behind my back. 
We may be "married" because we believe in the same things and would work hand in hand for the same things, but I'm just not taking your name. 
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Kass
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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Location: under a cockatiel
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:54 am Post subject: |
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Um...I must be pretty strange, because I really liked Secrets of a Summer Night and didn't understand why anyone here had a problem with it. It takes on women's powerlessness and class struggle in a good way.
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Schola
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| Kass wrote: | | Um...I must be pretty strange, because I really liked Secrets of a Summer Night and didn't understand why anyone here had a problem with it. It takes on women's powerlessness and class struggle in a good way. |
Since I brought it up in the first place, I feel obliged to add that I like it, too, though it's not my favourite Kleypas novel by any length.
It's just that I thought the scene in which Annabelle overhears the criticism of her mother-in-law is very anti-feminist. Simon's mother makes the valid point that many other women would have made better wives for him than Annabelle--and even Annabelle can't really argue with that. Yet she is still the heroine.
It seems the anti-thesis of Romances in which the hero discovers the kind heart behind a plain face, or finds a woman's assertiveness admirable rather than threatening, or is otherwise attracted to a heroine of substance--someone who isn't just a pretty face hoping for a rich husband. Annabelle does grow through the course of the story, but she starts out exactly as a pretty face hoping--and scheming--for a rich husband. In the end, she's still pretty and still "useless," but also married to a rich (and hot) husband who adores her and is willing to pay for as many shopping sprees as she wishes.
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"To be in a romance is to be in uncongenial surroundings. To be born into this earth is to be born into uncongenial surroundings, hence to be born into a romance." (G.K. Chesterton) |
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Sterling_95
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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I had a whopping huge reply, and of course, my computer ate it. Shall I accuse my computer of being an oppressive instrument of the patriarchy?  Therefore, my apologies to anyone whom I may have forgotten to reply to
Kass, the points that I brought up on conservative feminists was to the original posters, not to you. I know you brought up the 'other side'
Maybe different sects think differently, but Friends United Meeting, one of the biggest Quaker denominations, considers abortion violence of the body, and therefore, not acceptable.
Cora wrote
| Quote: | | But otherwise I agree, the heroes are generally more lavish with gifts than the heroines. |
You did bring up an interesting difference however, and that is that heroes' gifts tend to be more monetary focused while heroine gifts are more labor focus. How would we feel about say, Derek Craven baking Sara cookies, or Roarke knitting a sweater for Eve Dallas - would we smile or snicker? I'll admit, my first inclination is to snicker, which may not be so fair. Roarke does a lot of things well, so why not a craft such as knitting? Just because it's considered girly?
linda in sw va said | Quote: |
I love your post by the way, it's very informative! I had no idea there were feminists that 'celebrated differences'. I find that a breath of fresh air and if I were to place myself in any feminist column I guess this one would be it. Smile |
You're very welcome! The difference feminism started out from women who brought up points very much like the ones that you did: are things that women do and enjoy inferior simply because they are feminine and if so, expecting women to conform to an ideal - albeit a "feminist one - decided on by a particular group, was just as oppressive as the old standard.
Feminism nowadays is a strange beast. Like any major movement, the feminist revolution had unintended consequences, some of which got mixed reviews. I remember reading a review where they asked Gloria Steinem if she had any regrets, and she said that she regretted the sexual revolution, because in her book, women who were promiscuous and proud of it, were not a step forward, it just meant that women were behaving as badly as men, and that men could now pressure reluctant women into having sex by using feminism against her.
Now, I am glad that women are no longer shunned for being sexual and unwed mothers are no longer packed off to the nearest convent. However, I'm less than thrilled about 13 year olds who dress up like skanks to be empowered, or 14 year olds in pregnancy pacts, or women who embarrassed to admit they are virgins because they fear being labeled frigid, strange or rejected goods.
Which brings us back to 'Secrets of a Summer Night' and Annabel. I know that one of Mrs Giggles' biggest peeves is that heroines will often go for years as virgins or near virgins, without ever experiencing lust, temptation or fantasies, then they meet the hero and jump into bed with him in days. In SoaSN, Annabel refused to give up her virginity until Simon gave her something that she wanted in return: marriage. But readers weren't so crazy about that either, and hence Annabel was seen as a calculating gold-digger. So women aren't really sexually active, but they aren't allowed to be consciously chaste either.
On the issue of slapping, punching, etc, I don't like seeing either party engaging in it. I agree that the differences between the sexes can make the fight unequal, but to acknowledge that is to acknowledge that a woman is physically unequal to a man, which is a can of worms in itself. For me, unless there's an extreme circumstance in which the parties literally aren't thinking straight, violence is a no-no. And I wish that I could say that violence against men is restricted to old school bodice rippers where the men are horse's rear ends, but I've read a fair number of contemporaries that feature women beating up on men. Nora Roberts seems to be the worst offender; in 'Jewels of the Sun', Jude punched Aidan so hard that she broke his nose, and instead of getting arrested, she's applauded as she walks away. A couple readers mentioned to Nora that they were bothered that Anna used her fists so freely on Cam in 'Seaswept' since Anna was a social worker and she knew that Cam had been abused by his mother as a child, and Nora joked that as a woman who had grown up among brothers, she thought it was impossible for a woman to get along with a man without an occasional punch. I don't think so. I don't like to see women playing both sides of the fence, where we can hit and maul men and have crowds cheer us on, but if he hits us back, he's picking on the poor defenseless girl. As other readers have mentioned, girls are getting sexually aggressive earlier on, and when I saw a video of Robert Pattinson (Edward in Twilight), I was shocked at how the girls were treating him - pawing him, rubbing up against him, trying to grab him. If some girl ever tries to do it to a son of mine, I'll tell him that he can shove her away, with my blessings |
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Cora
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 1091
Location: Bremen, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Sterling_95 wrote: |
Cora wrote
| Quote: | | But otherwise I agree, the heroes are generally more lavish with gifts than the heroines. |
You did bring up an interesting difference however, and that is that heroes' gifts tend to be more monetary focused while heroine gifts are more labor focus. How would we feel about say, Derek Craven baking Sara cookies, or Roarke knitting a sweater for Eve Dallas - would we smile or snicker? I'll admit, my first inclination is to snicker, which may not be so fair. Roarke does a lot of things well, so why not a craft such as knitting? Just because it's considered girly?
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Since Roarke can be very nurturing, I wouldn't be all that surprised if he could knit, though I'd wonder where he'd find the time. No idea who the other couple are, hence I can't comment whether it would be appropriate for that hero to bake cookies.
But a hero cooking or baking for his heroine would be nice. Cal from Jennifer Crusie's Bet Me cooks for Min and also gives her meaningful, but not overly expensive gifts. And all those hot handymen could make themselves useful fixing the heroine's house (some of them do, in fact, e.g. in Linda Howard's Cover of Night), which again makes a better present than the usually lavish gifts. |
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xina
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6630
Location: minneapolis
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Feminism nowadays is a strange beast. Like any major movement, the feminist revolution had unintended consequences, some of which got mixed reviews. I remember reading a review where they asked Gloria Steinem if she had any regrets, and she said that she regretted the sexual revolution, because in her book, women who were promiscuous and proud of it, were not a step forward, it just meant that women were behaving as badly as men, and that men could now pressure reluctant women into having sex by using feminism against her.
Now, I am glad that women are no longer shunned for being sexual and unwed mothers are no longer packed off to the nearest convent. However, I'm less than thrilled about 13 year olds who dress up like skanks to be empowered, or 14 year olds in pregnancy pacts, or women who embarrassed to admit they are virgins because they fear being labeled frigid, strange or rejected goods.
[/quote]
Sterling, I have no idea how old you are or if you are in contact with any young women, but not all 13 yr. olds dress like "skanks"....your word or are involved in "pregnancy pacts". I get so tired of individuals judging young women by the Paris Hiltons of the world and/or what the media shovels up as news. Actually, young women today take full advantage of the work Steiman did. They can vote, go to college, hold the same jobs men do and run for president. Feminism nowadays is a strange beast because...it is a part of many young women's lives. And I hate to tell you...but there will always, always be young women dressing as "skanks"...your word. That, in itself, is nothing new. I urge you to take a good look at young women today, outside of the crap the media shows you. In real life, many are making good use of Steiman's work. And they are grateful for it.
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Schola
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1867
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Sterling95 wrote: | | As other readers have mentioned, girls are getting sexually aggressive earlier on, and when I saw a video of Robert Pattinson (Edward in Twilight), I was shocked at how the girls were treating him - pawing him, rubbing up against him, trying to grab him. If some girl ever tries to do it to a son of mine, I'll tell him that he can shove her away, with my blessings |
I think that Pattinson's official Web site actually has a request for fans to stop treating him like "a piece of meat"!
| Cora wrote: | | You did bring up an interesting difference however, and that is that heroes' gifts tend to be more monetary focused while heroine gifts are more labor focus. How would we feel about say, Derek Craven baking Sara cookies, or Roarke knitting a sweater for Eve Dallas - would we smile or snicker? I'll admit, my first inclination is to snicker, which may not be so fair. Roarke does a lot of things well, so why not a craft such as knitting? Just because it's considered girly? |
I read a Roxanne St. Claire novel in which the hero insists on cooking "authentic" Italian dishes for the heroine. He even shows her how to make a spoon out of bread and complains that she has electric burners on her stove instead of a gas range.
Then there are the heroes in Westerns who do "manly" cooking over open fires. 
Cooking is something men who live alone (i.e. most bachelors these days) have to learn how to do for themselves, so nobody would raise any eyebrows if a hero knew his way around a kitchen.
On the other hand, knitting is not an equally essential skill. I don't know any women who knit (not even my crafts-obsessed grandmother) and would be pleasantly surprised to read about a heroine who had that hobby. So it would probably be really weird--something the author would have to work doubly hard to explain--if the hero were a great knitter. Anyway, perhaps it just doesn't occur to Romance writers.
| Sterling95 wrote: | | A couple of readers have already pointed out a couple of discriminations already. We have chubby and short heroines, but rarely stocky, short and balding heroes. |
I just thought of another difference. (I'm sorry if it has been brought up earlier!)
The heroes are usually darker than the heroines--either because they are suntanned or because they have dark brown or black hair. Even when they are blond and relatively lighter skinned, there's usually a line about how her hand looks so white in his, or something like that. I think the rule also applies in Hollywood: the leading man has to be darker than his leading lady.
Of course, that rule is out the window when it comes to Interracial Romances--but unless I've been living under a rock for the past few months (which is, arguably, entirely possible! ), IR isn't mainstream.
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"To be in a romance is to be in uncongenial surroundings. To be born into this earth is to be born into uncongenial surroundings, hence to be born into a romance." (G.K. Chesterton) |
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Schola wrote: | | Sterling95 wrote: | | ]A couple of readers have already pointed out a couple of discriminations already. We have chubby and short heroines, but rarely stocky, short and balding heroes. |
I just thought of another difference. (I'm sorry if it has been brought up earlier!)
The heroes are usually darker than the heroines--either because they are suntanned or because they have dark brown or black hair. Even when they are blond and relatively lighter skinned, there's usually a line about how her hand looks so white in his, or something like that. I think the rule also applies in Hollywood: the leading man has to be darker than his leading lady.
Of course, that rule is out the window when it comes to Interracial Romances--but unless I've been living under a rock for the past few months (which is, arguably, entirely possible! ), IR isn't mainstream. |
I think the 'tall, dark and handsome' hero is a classic, darker looks tend to be typed as more attractive in men and blonde (usually long) fair looks as more attractive in women. I say used to be because I do see more variety now, especially with heroines.
I have no issues at all with a short and chubby heroine but please, no short, chubby and balding heroes. I have my own double standards. Though I do recall a Suzanne Brockman navy seal hero that was balding and very handsome.
Linda
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And I wish that I could say that violence against men is restricted to old school bodice rippers where the men are horse's rear ends, but I've read a fair number of contemporaries that feature women beating up on men. Nora Roberts seems to be the worst offender; in 'Jewels of the Sun', Jude punched Aidan so hard that she broke his nose, and instead of getting arrested, she's applauded as she walks away. |
I remember that book well and it's a shame because otherwise it was a really good book. There are references made throughout the story as to how the hero has never had his nose broken even though he's been in a lot of fights. The heroine gets mad and punches him in the nose in the end and breaks it. This was toward the end to, as the couple are getting their HEA. Can you imagine an HEA where the hero punches the heroines in the nose, breaks it, and everyone cheers? I can't.
| Quote: | | A couple readers mentioned to Nora that they were bothered that Anna used her fists so freely on Cam in 'Seaswept' since Anna was a social worker and she knew that Cam had been abused by his mother as a child, and Nora joked that as a woman who had grown up among brothers, she thought it was impossible for a woman to get along with a man without an occasional punch. I don't think so. |
That has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. I have an older brother (2 year difference) and while we did shove each other around occasionally when we were younger we outgrew that. I can't imagine doing so now or him to me. I've known women through my life that took pride in their 'temper' and wouldn't hesitate to lash out physically at their boyfriend/husband if they got them angry. The men never hit them back but you can bet those women would be the first to cry foul if they did, though it may make them think twice about it in the future.
My husband is a police officer and gets called to many houses for domestic dispute. Usually a neighbor has heard them arguing and calls the cops. When he goes to check things out he is witness to some pretty heated arguments. What amazes me is that while the men try to behave themselves perfectly in the officer's presence the women don't seem to care. They will physically attack the man right in his presence and then are shocked when they get arrested on the spot. Under domestic abuse laws (which do not mess around anymore) they are just as responsible for their actions as the man would be. And especially if he is witness to it, it's my husband that takes out the charges, not the victim. So they can't be dropped later and many women have found themselves before a judge for domestic abuse this way.
| Quote: | | and when I saw a video of Robert Pattinson (Edward in Twilight), I was shocked at how the girls were treating him - pawing him, rubbing up against him, trying to grab him. If some girl ever tries to do it to a son of mine, I'll tell him that he can shove her away, with my blessings |
I know, I have seen this, it's nuts! I think the young girls are worse for this than young men are. I can't see a bunch of younger boys getting away with groping or pawing at a female celebrity.
Linda
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"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner
Last edited by Linda in sw va on Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dick
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2263
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: |
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Somewhere I learned that most cowboys, shepherds, and many sailors either knit or crocheted--to pass the time. Fishermen, too, probably, for nets are essentially crocheted, aren't they?
Editorial addition: By golly, there's a web site for men who knit! |
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Sunita
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 132
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: knitting |
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Yes, there are men who knit. Not as many as women, but there are some fantastically talented knitters and knitwear designers out there.
I'd be surprised if any of you really don't know anyone who knits, given its recent and current popularity among all age groups. There is a membership group called Ravelry that at last count had over 233,000 members. The knitlist on Yahoo Groups has thousands and thousands of members. There were two or three different knitting shows on the various craft channels over the last few years. And every medium-sized town and up has a yarn store.
Debbie Macomber has a series that revolves around a knitting store, and there are other romance and women's fiction novels that have knitting as a major plot/character component. And there are plenty of romance novelists who are also knitters; I think they have a webring! |
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Yulie
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 1053
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| dick wrote: | | Somewhere I learned that most cowboys, shepherds, and many sailors either knit or crocheted--to pass the time. Fishermen, too, probably, for nets are essentially crocheted, aren't they? |
In one of the Outlander books (Drums of Autumn, I think) Jamie and young Ian make fun of Claire because of her relatively poor knitting skills; apparently they had been taught to knit so that they could be productive while watching the sheep. Claire even mentions some socks Jamie is knitting - "striped, the show-off!" |
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Sterling_95
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Cora wrote: |
Since Roarke can be very nurturing, I wouldn't be all that surprised if he could knit, though I'd wonder where he'd find the time. No idea who the other couple are, hence I can't comment whether it would be appropriate for that hero to bake cookies.
But a hero cooking or baking for his heroine would be nice. Cal from Jennifer Crusie's Bet Me cooks for Min and also gives her meaningful, but not overly expensive gifts. And all those hot handymen could make themselves useful fixing the heroine's house (some of them do, in fact, e.g. in Linda Howard's Cover of Night), which again makes a better present than the usually lavish gifts. |
A good handyman can be worth more in the long term than a fancy piece of jewelry. But I'm glad to hear that other posters can cite heroes who are good at the "domestic arts" so to speak. Schola, the book with the Italian chef sounds great - would you mind looking up the title for me?
| Quote: | | Sterling, I have no idea how old you are or if you are in contact with any young women, but not all 13 yr. olds dress like "skanks"....your word or are involved in "pregnancy pacts". I get so tired of individuals judging young women by the Paris Hiltons of the world and/or what the media shovels up as news. Actually, young women today take full advantage of the work Steiman did. They can vote, go to college, hold the same jobs men do and run for president. Feminism nowadays is a strange beast because...it is a part of many young women's lives. And I hate to tell you...but there will always, always be young women dressing as "skanks"...your word. That, in itself, is nothing new. I urge you to take a good look at young women today, outside of the crap the media shows you. In real life, many are making good use of Steiman's work. And they are grateful for it. |
Xina, I wish that I could say I were some fuddy duddy senior citizen who only sees young women on MTV and the like. I'm not. I haven't even entered my third decade yet, and I work with young people for a living, so I probably encounter more young women than your average person. Not all of them are involved in pregnancy pacts, or are Paris Hiltons. I can tell you however that a fair number of them have had sex with multiple partners by the age of 14, some are already parents, some have had abortions, many have experimented with drugs and/or cutting, and a few have participated in a lovely ritual known as "the train". I remember hearing about "the train" the first time in my therapy study group, and how shocked people were that this type of thing existed, and the age of kids participating in it. And my group was a bunch of 20 something, fresh out of college bleeding hearts, not exactly old fashioned conservatives.
There will always be women dressing provocatively, but what disturbs me is increasing youth of these girls. I was at a bookstore the other day and a girl who couldn't have been older than 8 walked by, sporting thigh high boots, a micro mini, leopard spotted tights and a faux fur trimmed jacket. I swear, my eyeballs almost fell out of my head. I'd seen items like that before in the kids' departments, but it was a revelation to realize that yes, pre-pubescent girls actually do dress like that.
I realize that not all girls act like this, but enough of them do to make me worry. I am grateful to Steinem and others who fought for the right of women to work, go to college and participate, and I do think that the movement did more good than harm. However, as I said before, any major movement has unintended consequences and even Steinem said that it went in ways that she didn't intend. I remember how when I went to college, I was all gung-ho on women's studies and my attitude was how dare women not call themselves feminists when we've benefited so much from feminism). Then I took introduction to women's studies and I read about Andrea Dworkin and Carol Gilligan; Camille Paglia and Naomi Wolf, and became aware of the different types of feminism, and learned as well of the lunatic fringe, like Sweden's Feminist Initiative party. Now, I'm more cautious about the word, and more understanding about women who talk about both the advantages and disadvantages of the women's movement.
| Quote: | | In one of the Outlander books (Drums of Autumn, I think) Jamie and young Ian make fun of Claire because of her relatively poor knitting skills; apparently they had been taught to knit so that they could be productive while watching the sheep. Claire even mentions some socks Jamie is knitting - "striped, the show-off!" |
That's 50 different kinds of awesome :)
| Quote: | | I remember that book well and it's a shame because otherwise it was a really good book. There are references made throughout the story as to how the hero has never had his nose broken even though he's been in a lot of fights. The heroine gets mad and punches him in the nose in the end and breaks it. This was toward the end to, as the couple are getting their HEA. Can you imagine an HEA where the hero punches the heroines in the nose, breaks it, and everyone cheers? I can't. |
No, I really can't. I'm trying to imagine the hero even shoving the heroine in public without answering to an outraged crowd.
| Quote: | | That has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. I have an older brother (2 year difference) and while we did shove each other around occasionally when we were younger we outgrew that. I can't imagine doing so now or him to me. I've known women through my life that took pride in their 'temper' and wouldn't hesitate to lash out physically at their boyfriend/husband if they got them angry. The men never hit them back but you can bet those women would be the first to cry foul if they did, though it may make them think twice about it in the future. |
I had a brother too, and although I wasn't as good as you (I hit him a few times), I feel guilty to these days about the times I was mean to him, especially since I was older. Nowadays, he's 10 inches taller than me and can pick me up like a sack of potatoes, but if I hit him, he would have every right to hit me back
| Quote: | | My husband is a police officer and gets called to many houses for domestic dispute. Usually a neighbor has heard them arguing and calls the cops. When he goes to check things out he is witness to some pretty heated arguments. What amazes me is that while the men try to behave themselves perfectly in the officer's presence the women don't seem to care. They will physically attack the man right in his presence and then are shocked when they get arrested on the spot. Under domestic abuse laws (which do not mess around anymore) they are just as responsible for their actions as the man would be. And especially if he is witness to it, it's my husband that takes out the charges, not the victim. So they can't be dropped later and many women have found themselves before a judge for domestic abuse this way. |
Glamor magazine did a piece on the increasing numbers of male victims in domestic violence. They said that although it's pretty puny in comparison to female victims of DV, it's hard to estimate because the men rarely want to press charges
| Quote: | | I think that Pattinson's official Web site actually has a request for fans to stop treating him like "a piece of meat"! |
| Quote: |
I know, I have seen this, it's nuts! I think the young girls are worse for this than young men are. I can't see a bunch of younger boys getting away with groping or pawing at a female celebrity. |
I hope that the poor boy hires a bodyguard because his fans are kooky and are getting away with far more than they should be allowed |
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xina
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6630
Location: minneapolis
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Xina, I wish that I could say I were some fuddy duddy senior citizen who only sees young women on MTV and the like. I'm not. I haven't even entered my third decade yet, and I work with young people for a living, so I probably encounter more young women than your average person. Not all of them are involved in pregnancy pacts, or are Paris Hiltons. I can tell you however that a fair number of them have had sex with multiple partners by the age of 14, some are already parents, some have had abortions, many have experimented with drugs and/or cutting, and a few have participated in a lovely ritual known as "the train". I remember hearing about "the train" the first time in my therapy study group, and how shocked people were that this type of thing existed, and the age of kids participating in it. And my group was a bunch of 20 something, fresh out of college bleeding hearts, not exactly old fashioned conservatives.
There will always be women dressing provocatively, but what disturbs me is increasing youth of these girls. I was at a bookstore the other day and a girl who couldn't have been older than 8 walked by, sporting thigh high boots, a micro mini, leopard spotted tights and a faux fur trimmed jacket. I swear, my eyeballs almost fell out of my head. I'd seen items like that before in the kids' departments, but it was a revelation to realize that yes, pre-pubescent girls actually do dress like that.
I realize that not all girls act like this, but enough of them do to make me worry. I am grateful to Steinem and others who fought for the right of women to work, go to college and participate, and I do think that the movement did more good than harm. However, as I said before, any major movement has unintended consequences and even Steinem said that it went in ways that she didn't intend. I remember how when I went to college, I was all gung-ho on women's studies and my attitude was how dare women not call themselves feminists when we've benefited so much from feminism). Then I took introduction to women's studies and I read about Andrea Dworkin and Carol Gilligan; Camille Paglia and Naomi Wolf, and became aware of the different types of feminism, and learned as well of the lunatic fringe, like Sweden's Feminist Initiative party. Now, I'm more cautious about the word, and more understanding about women who talk about both the advantages and disadvantages of the women's movement.
My daughter just finished her women's studies class and has really enjoyed it. And too, if you are working with young women in therapy, I would assume they have more problems than the usual.
And on the one hand there is a lot of disturbing evidence out there that girls do not try to live up to their potential, but on the other hand there are a lot that do that have pride in themselves and are trying to be good people, look forward to a bright future. It's sad that those people are never mentioned and the bad ones get highlighted. I guess it takes all kind to make a world. We are not all perfect, nor are we all bad either. Sometimes it helps to recognize the good ones too, because I know several young women who are on the right track....as bumpy as it can be at times, they still manage to forge ahead.
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lijakaca
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 341
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| dick wrote: | | Still, in those matters where equality is possible, it ought to exist. At its best, feminism is almost a synonym for fairness of treatment. How can anyone not believe in that? |
dick, I may not agree with you on many things regarding romance novels, but I totally agree with you here. I think feminism is based on the regard for equality of the sexes, and though there are many individual feminists and organizations that I don't agree with (for example those who believe promoting equality for women is more important than other types of equality), that basic fact is enough for me to self-identify as a feminist.
To me a feminist is someone who believe that men and women should be treated equally (and I'm not talking about reduction ad absurdum).
Beyond that definition almost no one can agree what a 'real' feminist believes in.
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