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Should uninformed voters vote?
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Maggie AAR
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 2478

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Should uninformed voters vote? Reply with quote

KarenS wrote:
Are you saying that I am so influential that little 'ole me could dissuade you from voting Democrat? Personally, you don't fit the profile and I don't see you voting Democrat. And when I say profile, that comes from a psychologist who studied people and their political leanings. There are traits people possess who vote the way they do. You just strike me more as a Republican that is all. Some of your comments are judgmental as well which is something a poster can not avoid by the very nature of the internet.


I wouldn't call you influential. More I would say you are frightening both in your ignorance and your political views. Ignorance in that not only have I stated openly on this list I am/was a Hilary backer (guess maybe she doesn't count as democrat for you) but I have voted democrat in all categories (president/governor/senator/representative) in the last three elections. Gosh, if your a psychologist I hope you didn't use this kind of smug guess work in treating your patients. It makes one wonder how many of your clients have actually been left alive. Frightening in that you actually make me take a second look at the party I was going to vote for and say, "Can anyone on the other side be as scary as THAT?"

And yes, my post did sound judgmental because I found your post to sound very elitist. To me it sounded like the worst possible endorsement of a political belief, as though the poster had an us and them mentality and had assured herself that she was an elite "us", someone capable of making decisions for others because she knew best. I think of America as a place of equals where even the most ignorant are treated with a modicum of respect and are given the right to vote whether or not they choose to exercise it. I would not take this right away from anyone, you would clearly pull it from many. Only for their own good of course.

maggie b.
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xina



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6635
Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Should uninformed voters vote? Reply with quote

I am not a republican but I will be honest, your post scared me more than anything I have heard from them in a while. Maybe I need to take a second look at McCain if this is what the blue ticket is actually standing for.

maggie b.[/quote]



Interesting debate/conversation all around......however, at this point in the game, I really can't see a serious voter jumping from Obama to McCain at this point anyway. I've always thought there is a lack of gray area with these candidates as they each have very different outlooks and plans for the future of this country...well, at least to me. Jumping from one to the other just seems a bit fickle, and I don't mean to insult anyone. So, sorry if any insult is taken.
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LizE



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 253

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
About the issues the thread segued into: In my thinking, Obama's vague about a lot of issues and promised programs and has had very little experience; McCain espouses attitudes and programs that I disagree with. I'm sitting between Scylla and Charybdis and all that I can do is hope.


Haloo there, matey! Got room for one more on your ship?
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Maggie AAR
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Should uninformed voters vote? Reply with quote

xina wrote:

Interesting debate/conversation all around......however, at this point in the game, I really can't see a serious voter jumping from Obama to McCain at this point anyway. I've always thought there is a lack of gray area with these candidates as they each have very different outlooks and plans for the future of this country...well, at least to me. Jumping from one to the other just seems a bit fickle, and I don't mean to insult anyone. So, sorry if any insult is taken.


Actually, pollsters have been very careful this year to point out that last minute events have impacted the last two presidential elections, resulting in some close, close races. John Kerry was predicted to be the president and talked in a recent interview about how he felt he lost the election in the last three weeks of it. Personally, I saw a bigger difference between George and John than I do between Obama and McCain.

Strictly speaking for myself, I like to wait to see how the candidates (and their supporters) act during crunch time (that last month before the election) and am more influenced by that behavior than in the times before it. I've always believed that adage (and I will misquote it here) that you can know a man his whole life but will learn more about him in three minutes of watching him under pressure than in a life time of watching him without it. Being president is a high pressure job at the best of times and brings out the best and worst in leadership skills in the worst of times. I want to see whoever I pick in as close to a condition of that worst of times as I can get.

I also like to think that I am not a "party" voter. I've always found that to be an extremely lazy way to vote but that is of course only my own opinion. I understand why people often do it since research shows most people have die hard issues they vote for which are little affected by current events.

Right now I am reading "The Myth of the Rational Voter" which explains a lot about the process of democracy in ways I've never looked at it before. Maybe that is influencing my conversation more than I realized. Either way I think I will take a break from all this. I had thought the initial topic of this thread was a no brainer and I guess I have been more than a little surprised and disturbed then I have any right to be at how a person's right to vote wasn't quite the given I thought it to be.

maggie b.
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KarenS



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 870
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Should uninformed voters vote? Reply with quote

maggie b. wrote:
KarenS wrote:
Are you saying that I am so influential that little 'ole me could dissuade you from voting Democrat? Personally, you don't fit the profile and I don't see you voting Democrat. And when I say profile, that comes from a psychologist who studied people and their political leanings. There are traits people possess who vote the way they do. You just strike me more as a Republican that is all. Some of your comments are judgmental as well which is something a poster can not avoid by the very nature of the internet.


I wouldn't call you influential. More I would say you are frightening both in your ignorance and your political views. Ignorance in that not only have I stated openly on this list I am/was a Hilary backer (guess maybe she doesn't count as democrat for you) but I have voted democrat in all categories (president/governor/senator/representative) in the last three elections. Gosh, if your a psychologist I hope you didn't use this kind of smug guess work in treating your patients. It makes one wonder how many of your clients have actually been left alive. Frightening in that you actually make me take a second look at the party I was going to vote for and say, "Can anyone on the other side be as scary as THAT?"

And yes, my post did sound judgmental because I found your post to sound very elitist. To me it sounded like the worst possible endorsement of a political belief, as though the poster had an us and them mentality and had assured herself that she was an elite "us", someone capable of making decisions for others because she knew best. I think of America as a place of equals where even the most ignorant are treated with a modicum of respect and are given the right to vote whether or not they choose to exercise it. I would not take this right away from anyone, you would clearly pull it from many. Only for their own good of course.

maggie b.


I am not a psychologist though I'm very much interested in human behavior and do read as much as possible on the subject. How did you arrive at that assumption? Was I suppose to know you are a Hillary supporter? Yes, she is a wonderful Democrat so why would you assume I didn't think she was Democrat enough? Lots of anger here, Maggie, directed at me because you think I am elitist, judgmental and passionate for issues that we happen to disagree on. Clearly, you seem sensitive to abortion, birth control and sex education and I probably hit several nerves. Well, we certainly know where we both stand on these issues. We will have to agree to disagree.

Dick asked for the information regarding Psychologist Jonathan Haidt's comments regarding the differences between liberals and conservatives. It is interesting to listen to. I tend to agree with him where he says that liberals are most concerned for fairness/reciprocity and harm/care while unconcerned with ingroup loyalty, authority/respect and purity/sanctity that Republicans identify with. It's just interesting info trying to figure out why people vote the way they do. There's also other studies that show people tend to either vote Democrat or Republican depending on their relationship with their father and the kind of father they have. Caring/nurturing father breeds Democrats while stern/authoritarian father breeds Republicans. This also goes along the same lines on how people view God. Kind, caring father god type vs. stern, harsh, vengeful god type. Interesting info. I am just throwing it out as it's interesting and I am fascinated by stuff like this. You may too!


http://machineslikeus.com/news/video-real-difference-between-liberals


Some may blow this off as liberal crap but there you have it for your edification.

Is there someone wrong with being elitist? Is that the new bad word for people who are liberals, who don't vote Republican? Need to keep up with the latest you know. Actually calling me an elitist is a compliment in my opinion. But the part that I take exception to is the assumption that I think I know what's best for everyone or you assuming that I think I know what's best for everyone. That was fascinating. Usually Democrats think that about Republicans. So there's a lot of misconceptions about the other party. Maybe, someday, partisanship will die a much-needed death and we will all just be Americans again.
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LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
to lisa w: Two questions: What are the elements of the psychological profile which can indicate whether a person is most likely to be a Democrat or a Republican?

Why should posting on the internet lead one to be judgmental? Seems to me that's a choice the poster makes, isn't it?


I'm sorry --- I think somehow you have wildly confused me with Karen S.

Have you been drinking her koolaid??


LizE wrote:
dick wrote:
About the issues the thread segued into: In my thinking, Obama's vague about a lot of issues and promised programs and has had very little experience; McCain espouses attitudes and programs that I disagree with. I'm sitting between Scylla and Charybdis and all that I can do is hope.


Haloo there, matey! Got room for one more on your ship?


You want better choices for candidates? Starting with the next election of any national candidates, get involved. Start working now to make the national news media back into a News Media and not an adjunct of a political party. Think it's not so? Look back at the days of the Obama / Hillary / everyone else primaries and see if Barack didn't get a lot of a pass. Not much searching into a past. And, that same media pushed for McCain .... who isn't really the candidate of choice for much of the the Conservative base.

Karen S wrote:

The elderly voter can certainly vote for whomever they choose to. That is their right. However, they should know what each candidate might do with Social Security and Medicare. They may not care what he does to them and that is their right. McCain's proposals are harmful to all future elderly folks in this country. Myself included provided Medicare and Social Security is still around when I am eligible to receive them. I used the elderly voter as an example from LisaW's comments that Obama's voters don't know what he stands for. I raised the question of whether the elderly know McCain's stand on these two issues as an example of a group who needs to know the candidate's stand on issues.


Every 4 years the old canard of "Those dastardly Republicans are going to take away your social security" is the cry out across the land. And, you are absolutely right ... older voters need to become more educated in who they are voting for if their social security is important to them. In every single major situation of a cutting of the social security benefits, it has been when a Democrat Congress and Democrat President have been able to get their fingers into it. So, although the Democrat's constantly cry "The Republicans will take your Social Security!" it just ain't so.
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2498

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to lisa w: I certainly regret the confusion. But, as my post was a straightforward request for information along with a straightforward comment about posters being judgemental, I don't understand the snide comment about that post.

And what is the trail of reasoning that leads from getting involved with national elections to removing news media bias? I think the most that an individual can do about that is think, and judge for himself.

I hesitate to advise anyone about anything. I, like all others posters on these boards, am only that--a poster. I've read your posts with interest, because you are obviously well-informed. But, you know, a reasonable tone goes much further in convincing others than a highly contentious and belittling one.
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LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
to lisa w: I certainly regret the confusion. But, as my post was a straightforward request for information along with a straightforward comment about posters being judgemental, I don't understand the snide comment about that post.

And what is the trail of reasoning that leads from getting involved with national elections to removing news media bias? I think the most that an individual can do about that is think, and judge for himself.

I hesitate to advise anyone about anything. I, like all others posters on these boards, am only that--a poster. I've read your posts with interest, because you are obviously well-informed. But, you know, a reasonable tone goes much further in convincing others than a highly contentious and belittling one.


Dick -- You specifically posted:

Quote:


to lisa w: Two questions: What are the elements of the psychological profile which can indicate whether a person is most likely to be a Democrat or a Republican?

Why should posting on the internet lead one to be judgmental? Seems to me that's a choice the poster makes, isn't it?


Since I was not the one who brought up anything based on "psychological" but Karen S was, I made that comment. Since I would normally not think anyone would confuse a post of mine with one of Karen S's ... or vice versa ... that was the reason for my comment. And I have no idea where you were going with

Quote:

Why should posting on the internet lead one to be judgmental? Seems to me that's a choice the poster makes, isn't it?


you'll have to phrase it some other way for me to be able to answer you.

As to the trail of getting involved in national elections and bias in the news media ... in the past, the media was not quite as obvious as to its bias and we at least got some coverage, pro and con, on both sides. Now, the standard mainstream media is actively biased. Unfortunately, too many people strictly get their information from mainstream media, never checking out any other point of view. Fortunately, a lot of mainstream media (from newspapers up to network news broadcasts) are losing their audience (all those lovely layoffs in newspapers are not just because people read their news on the internet ....). You want better candidates? You both have to make your voice known to the parties involved, you also have to let the media know "I'm mad as Heck and I'm not going to take it anymore."
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"The White House isn't the place to learn how to deal with international crisis, the balance of power, war and peace, the economic future of the next generation." --- Joe Biden, 1988
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Cora



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 1129
Location: Bremen, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:

About sex education: I taught a considerable number of young people who became teachers. I wouldn't want a great number of them teaching the subject they were supposedly prepared for, let alone allow them to inculcate sexual morality--if there is such a thing.


Actually, the job of sex education is not to instill sexual morality (of which everybody has a different concept anyway) but to provide information about human sexuality works and how to prevent unwanted consequences in the form of pregnancies or STDs. Of course, it sometimes seems to me that the US favours morality over information a bit too much (all that abstinence stuff), which is probably why US sex education doesn't work very well.

As for the main issue, you will find badly informed voters among all age groups. So why is it always the young voters who are targeted, whereas no one seems to have a problem with equally badly informed older voters? In my country, people with dementia and mental retardation are still allowed to vote, i.e. people unable to grasp what is going on politically, but attempts to lower the voting age to 16 for local and regional elections only caused a lot of outcry about how 16-year-olds are not mentally prepared to vote. Since many of the complaints about the supposedly immature and uninformed young voters come from certain conservative circles, I suspect that reason is that young people tend to lean left in their political and voting behaviour.
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LizE



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 253

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LisaW wrote:
You want better choices for candidates? Starting with the next election of any national candidates, get involved.


I do! I do! But I don't want either of the parties we've got, they're too similar. I wish the debates hadn't been restricted. I wanted to hear what Ralph Nader and Cynthia McKinney and Ron Paul and Bob Barr had to say. At least they would have opened up some issues that the mainstream candidates don't dare touch. Like Ralph Nader asserting that the current administration is guilty of war crimes. You don't hear that sort of stuff in the pre-scripted snooze-fests we've been treated to.

Last night during the final debate, my dh and I were answering the questions right along with the candidates, tossing out those 95%s and $42,000s right on cue. At least I stayed awake, which is more than I can say for the last one.
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