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Interesting Info that came out of a recent poll
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2505

PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If read as written, my posts are non-partisan. As the follow-up post states, I'm not happy with either ticket. Regardless, a review of the news and commentary suggests that Palin has as little experience as Obama. I think it's reasonable that, since McCain has picked up Clinton's oft-repeated mantra that experience is important, that he erred in choosing her, especially since, as you say, Americans aren't blind, and are well aware of his age and health.

I also fail to see how the posts were sexist. I did not refer to her gender, except perhaps with the use of the feminine pronoun, again a reasonable use under the circumstances.

Straw men are convenient, aren't they?
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Kass



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

McCain has a lof of experience making sure that he votes with the right to lifers and straight party conservatism, other than in a very few areas. If you want a Bush clone, you vote McCain. If you think the last eight years have been a disaster, and they have, and anyone who thinks otherwise is out of touch with reality and makes more than $5 million a year, then you vote Obama.
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Gail K.



Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 1292

PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
that he erred in choosing her, especially since, as you say, Americans aren't blind, and are well aware of his age and health.


If any of you have watched CNN's excellent series "McCain: Revealed" (or "Obama:Revealed"), or paid any attention to McCain's biography, this man has survived a hell of a lot worse than melanoma. Yes, Palin may become one "heartbeat" away from the Presidency, but barring any tragic, unforseen event, I would lay my money on John McCain surviving the next 4 years, if not the next 8 or many more, any day.

If McCain's heart, mind, and body, can withstand AND recover (to the extent physiologically possible) from the beatings and torture thrown at him by his Vietcong captors, then I would say his body has a lot more going from him than the average American 72 year-old male. Ask any health care professional and he/she will readily acknowledge that mental and emotional health--especially in reaction to great stress -- are important determinants of physical health. And something tells me, if elected, McCain will not regard the years of his Presidency as any less vital than the years he endured in his captivity, for the honor of his country.


Last edited by Gail K. on Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tyakoffs



Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm finding this an interesting conversation as an outsider. But I have two questions:

1. Dick doesn't the Republican party also use a caucus system? I was under the impression that for instance Iowa delegates were decided by caucuses in both parties. I'm also interested in what appears to be the view that awarding delegates by a winner take all system is more 'fair' than according to percentage of support. As an outsider what really makes this fascinating is the variation in systems of selecting delegates to a national convention for a national office. It really gives the impression of diversity and regionalism as factors in U.S. politics.

2. BBmedos the concept of leadership and what it represents is fascinating. I'm intrigued by the notion that changing positions seems to be viewed as a lack of leadership. For example, can leadership be invoked as including the capacity to change positions to respond to new circumstances. For instance, McCain's involvement with changing relations between the U.S. and the Vietnamese goverment would seem to be a rational reasonable response to changing conditions since the end of the Vietnam War.

My impression is changing postions was viewed as a negative factor in evaluating both H. Clinton as a candidate and Kerry's leardership capacity during the past Presidential campaign.

I'm also interested if Republican's view McCain as having changed positions over the past 8 years.

I agree that McCain certainly was a hero of the Vietnam war, but do you think any Republican viewers, Demo's or Independents were at all uncomfortable about the emphasis on McCain's military service in contrast to Bush's military record and the treatment of Kerry's service in the last election.

I guess I'm asking do American voters approach every election as a new event or do they expect consistency within parties and campaigns over time.

You might be interested in knowing that parties in Canadahave in the past selected leaders who went on to become Prime Minister with no or little experience in elected office. (Brian Mulroney, for example).

Thanks
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Gail K.



Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 1292

PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyakoffs wrote:

but do you think any Republican viewers, Demo's or Independents were at all uncomfortable about the emphasis on McCain's military service in contrast to Bush's military record and the treatment of Kerry's service in the last election.

I guess I'm asking do American voters approach every election as a new event or do they expect consistency within parties and campaigns over time.



Yes, as an Independent, I am uncomfortable with opportunistic political expediency as practiced by either major party. And as a Cynic, no I do not expect consistency out of anything related to electoral politics or its media coverage in the U.S.
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bbmedos



Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
I also fail to see how the posts were sexist. I did not refer to her gender, except perhaps with the use of the feminine pronoun, again a reasonable use under the circumstances.

Straw men are convenient, aren't they?


I was actually referring to the media's and campaign's spin overall being sexist not your post in particular, Dick.
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2505

PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to tyakoff: I don't think the Republicans operate the caucus in the way the Democrats do, if they caucus at all. If they do, I think--with a little uncertainty--that the caucus members have to vote as the electorate chose. I.e., they are not supposed to change their support from the candidate the majority of the voters in a district or precinct chose. I think Republican caucuses use a winner-take-all approach. These are "party" rules, by the way.

The winner take all approach is more akin to the process in the general election. When a candidate, for example, wins the majority of votes in a particular state, the electoral college members from that state vote for that candidate and essentially for the party of which he is a member.

Editted to add: I'm wrong. Republican rules change from state to state; they do use caucuses, but they are less fluid than the Democrats' caucuses. Some of the state do "apportion" the delegates according to the percentages of the popular vote. From what I've learned though, more states do winner take all than apportion.
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xina



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6635
Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gail K. wrote:
dick wrote:
that he erred in choosing her, especially since, as you say, Americans aren't blind, and are well aware of his age and health.


If any of you have watched CNN's excellent series "McCain: Revealed" (or "Obama:Revealed"), or paid any attention to McCain's biography, this man has survived a hell of a lot worse than melanoma. Yes, Palin may become one "heartbeat" away from the Presidency, but barring any tragic, unforseen event, I would lay my money on John McCain surviving the next 4 years, if not the next 8 or many more, any day.

If McCain's heart, mind, and body, can withstand AND recover (to the extent physiologically possible) from the beatings and torture thrown at him by his Vietcong captors, then I would say his body has a lot more going from him than the average American 72 year-old male. Ask any health care professional and he/she will readily acknowledge that mental and emotional health--especially in reaction to great stress -- are important determinants of physical health. And something tells me, if elected, McCain will not regard the years of his Presidency as any less vital than the years he endured in his captivity, for the honor of his country.




Gail, I agree that John McCain is an honorable man...brave and he seems like a nice guy. However, I don't agree with his vision of America in the next 4 years. It smacks of the Bush Administration and I really, really want to pull away from that mess. And too, McCain is old...no getting around that. I shudder to think, if something happened to him, his vice president, Sarah Palin, with very little experience would be the President, and I think that is a concern of many people. To me...it is frightening. As for McCain as a man...I think he's an exceptional person.
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Gail K.



Joined: 19 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xina wrote:
And too, McCain is old...no getting around that. I shudder to think, if something happened to him, his vice president, Sarah Palin, with very little experience would be the President, and I think that is a concern of many people.


Of course people shouldn't vote for McCain if they don't agree with his vision of the country. The point I was trying to make is that the perception, fostered by the media and the Democratic Party, that McCain may drop dead at any second, is preposterous. He's hardier than most. I know I couldn't tolerate gallivanting around the country for months straight and I'm half his age.
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xina



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gail K. wrote:
xina wrote:
And too, McCain is old...no getting around that. I shudder to think, if something happened to him, his vice president, Sarah Palin, with very little experience would be the President, and I think that is a concern of many people.


Of course people shouldn't vote for McCain if they don't agree with his vision of the country. The point I was trying to make is that the perception, fostered by the media and the Democratic Party, that McCain may drop dead at any second, is preposterous. He's hardier than most. I know I couldn't tolerate gallivanting around the country for months straight and I'm half his age.



I was only commenting on McCain Gail. I didn't take it that you were persuading me to vote for him. Well, anything to happen to a president and the vice would be in charge. I guess we all have think of these things more now than ever.
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Gail K.



Joined: 19 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xina wrote:

I was only commenting on McCain Gail. I didn't take it that you were persuading me to vote for him. Well, anything to happen to a president and the vice would be in charge. I guess we all have think of these things more now than ever.


I know, xina. Sorry if it seemed like I was taking out my ire on you. In this day & age of modern medicine, a 72-year old man, particularly one such as McCain, is not teetering on the brink of (natural) death! My own grandfather is well into his 80's and he's a man who smoked and drank heavily for half his life.
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xina



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gail K. wrote:
xina wrote:

I was only commenting on McCain Gail. I didn't take it that you were persuading me to vote for him. Well, anything to happen to a president and the vice would be in charge. I guess we all have think of these things more now than ever.


I know, xina. Sorry if it seemed like I was taking out my ire on you. In this day & age of modern medicine, a 72-year old man, particularly one such as McCain, is not teetering on the brink of (natural) death! My own grandfather is well into his 80's and he's a man who smoked and drank heavily for half his life.




I think it all has to do with one's genes. My FIL has smoked 2 packs a day since he was 16! He is now 85, living in Arizona. His wife died last year ( Crying or Very sad ) but he is living well on his own and apparently all the older women, who were my MIL's friends take a real interest in him. Laughing There is a real lack of male comanionship in those retirement communities. Anyway, he seems happy and as content as he can be living without his wife.
My parents are both in their 90's and until about 3 years ago traveled back and forth to Australia to live for part of the year. They were doing that in there late 80's! I think at John McCain's age, my father was doing all kinds of yardwork which included a chainsaw **sigh** and a little tractor, still working part time and doing much traveling with my mother. So, 72...in my family, is like a baby!
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dick



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 2505

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm older than McCain, and I still do whatever I want to do, also. I too have an oft-used chainsaw, by the way, and my forebears lived long lives. Still, although one may hop with great vigor into the 7th decade, he knows as well as anybody that time's chariot is speeding up--he just ignores it. That doesn't mean, of course, that the likelihood of either of us dropping dead behind the mower (not a bad way to go) isn't greater than it is for someone several decades younger.
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Maggie AAR
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 2490

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dick wrote:
I'm older than McCain, and I still do whatever I want to do, also. I too have an oft-used chainsaw, by the way, and my forebears lived long lives. Still, although one may hop with great vigor into the 7th decade, he knows as well as anybody that time's chariot is speeding up--he just ignores it. That doesn't mean, of course, that the likelihood of either of us dropping dead behind the mower (not a bad way to go) isn't greater than it is for someone several decades younger.


Ok, I have to say it. Your post brought tears to my eyes. Crying or Very sad Now I'm all stressed out that you will suddenly go silent. Don't leave us! We would miss you too much.

maggie b.
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Yulie



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 1150
Location: Elsewhere

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a bit of perspective on older politicians: Shimon Peres, President of Israel, is 85 years old. While the presidency in Israel is largely ceremonial, Mr. Peres held a ministrial position and was vice PM until 2007. He doesn't seem to be slowing down too much. At the age of 72, he was the interim prime minister and came within a few thousand votes of winning the 1996 elections for PM. I think we would have been better off had he won Sad .
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