AAR
Click here for full forums index
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 
The So-Called Right to Bear Arms
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    AAR Forum Index -> The Wild Wild West Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Margaret



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 878

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
[quote="Donna Lea Simpson"][quote="KarenS"]
LisaW wrote:
[quote=KarenS]
So, thinking America is the only intolerant country is stupid at best. You want to see some intolerance? Go to Canada and make the statement "I don't think the holocaust happend." Just see how tolerant the Canadians are. Somehow, America Bashing has become the new sport. If you think America is so bad, I suggest you do some traveling to other locations, live in another country and see just how tolerant they are.


KarenS, I'm really surprised to see this comment from you. And I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

Quote:
Donna Lee Simpson wrote...We have a justified reputation for being one of the more tolerant of nations, and I like it that way.


Bravo, Donna! Eh! Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LizA wrote:


I'd be really interested in this pleasure palace prison that is supposed to be in Austria, esp since Austrian prisons have a very bad reputation here in Europe... never heard of it, really. There are not all that many prisons in Austria, and those that exist are very much in the news for being overcrowded!


Best set of photos I can find are on Snopes

http://www.snopes.com/photos/architecture/prison.asp

Donna Lea Simpson wrote:
LisaW wrote:

So, thinking America is the only intolerant country is stupid at best. You want to see some intolerance? Go to Canada and make the statement "I don't think the holocaust happend." Just see how tolerant the Canadians are. Somehow, America Bashing has become the new sport. If you think America is so bad, I suggest you do some traveling to other locations, live in another country and see just how tolerant they are.


Wow, have you tried saying that in Canada? If you said exactly that - 'I don't think the holocaust happened' - what would occur is most people would view you as sadly mal-educated and probably a conspiracy theorist, but nothing more.


While I'm sure a lot of people might just consider someone making that statement as mal-educated ... but the Canadian Government would be charging the someone making that statement with a "Hate Crime" -- they already have and will again. My father also fought in WWII ... he wasn't one who liberated a concentration camp, but was in one very soon after.

Donna Lee Simpson wrote:

We have a justified reputation for being one of the more tolerant of nations, and I like it that way. You have a perfect right to express an opinion in our country, but not to try to use vicious lies to misinform the maladjusted among us.


Well, you might think your country is "very tolerant" and you have a right to express an opinion ... but apparently only opinions that are approved.

I know the Holocaust happened -- I believe there is enough evidence (my father's personal accounts count toward that for me). But there are others who either don't, for whatever reason. Are they idiots? IMO, yes. But, if you are going to have "Freedom of Speech," that means the Government cannot stop them from having that opinion and stating it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Audrey



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 192
Location: Alberta, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canada certainly does not throw people in jail just for saying something like "I don't think the holocaust happened."

Hate crime legislation is for people whose speech is "so abusive that it was likely to incite listeners or readers into violent action against an identifiable group, and if the the speech was made in a public place, then a person could be convicted. " This is from religioustolerance.org after just a quick google.

We've gotten up to some pretty heated conversations over the years with friends and family over just about every subject under the sun, and none of us go running to the government to check to see if these opinions are "approved". And none of us ended up in jail, either.

As to the American bashing, I don't hear a lot of it. Most of us know people from the U.S. and realize there's just as many different kinds of people and opinions as there is up here, and so don't just lump all Americans together.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Margaret



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 878

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


While I'm sure a lot of people might just consider someone making that statement as mal-educated ... but the Canadian Government would be charging the someone making that statement with a "Hate Crime" -- they already have and will again.

Well, you might think your country is "very tolerant" and you have a right to express an opinion ... but apparently only opinions that are approved.


All the above is so uninformed it would be laughable if not so sad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Margaret



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 878

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
[quote="Audrey"]Canada certainly does not throw people in jail just for saying something like "I don't think the holocaust happened."


Better be careful Audrey, Big Brother may be listening. Laughing I better add that I'm joking (as a fellow Canadian). This conversation is just unbelievable. I think you and Donna have been very gratious with your responses.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
KarenS



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 868
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Margaret"]
Quote:
[quote="Donna Lea Simpson"][quote="KarenS"]
LisaW wrote:
[quote=KarenS]
So, thinking America is the only intolerant country is stupid at best. You want to see some intolerance? Go to Canada and make the statement "I don't think the holocaust happend." Just see how tolerant the Canadians are. Somehow, America Bashing has become the new sport. If you think America is so bad, I suggest you do some traveling to other locations, live in another country and see just how tolerant they are.


KarenS, I'm really surprised to see this comment from you. And I'm not quite sure what to make of it.



Margaret:

For the record, I did not make the "Canada" comment. It was made by LisaW in reference to my comments about: "Only in America......" that was posted by me on July 29th. Lisa commented that I was out of line to say that and wanted to show examples of other countries that are just as intolerant as we are. Hence the comment about Canada. Lisa considers it to be America bashing when one criticizes America. My comment was about Americans who feel they have a right to kill someone or others when they don't agree with them. I don't consider it to be bashing but she thought otherwise. Apparently, rhetorical questions are frowned upon.

I probably created the problem by not quoting properly so that everyone would know who said what. My bad and I apologize for my poor/inept posting abilities.

Karen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Margaret



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 878

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:




Margaret:

For the record, I did not make the "Canada" comment. It was made by LisaW in reference to my comments about: "Only in America......" that was posted by me on July 29th. Lisa commented that I was out of line to say that and wanted to show examples of other countries that are just as intolerant as we are. Hence the comment about Canada. Lisa considers it to be America bashing when one criticizes America. My comment was about Americans who feel they have a right to kill someone or others when they don't agree with them. I don't consider it to be bashing but she thought otherwise. Apparently, rhetorical questions are frowned upon.


Karen
[/quote]

Thanks, KarenS, that explains alot, it just didn't sound like you. No need to apologize. Like I said I was surprised, I should have triple checked the source. So really My Bad. Embarassed
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cora



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Bremen, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For historical reasons, Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany and Austria. It's part of a law forbidding inflammatory hate speech, which might incite violence against people. Here is a bit more explanation in English. The law is formulated more generally, i.e. it can be theoretically applied against anybody advocating violence against other people. But in practice, it has mainly been used against die-hard Neonazis who keep on spewing their hate-filled crap (I think there have been one or two attempts to use it against particularly nasty islamists as well). And even Neonazis have freedom of speech otherwise, e.g. Neonazi marches or ralleys are rarely banned by the courts. Nor has to my knowledge anybody been arrested or convicted because he denied the holocaust at a private dinner party or something like that. The people like Ernst Zündel (Canada only extradited the guy, our courts dealt with him) who were convicted had published their stuff.

Personally, I think that banning extreme hate speech is a good thing, since some of the hate-filled "kill all liberals, gays, feminists, muslims" etc... stuff one occasionally hears from the more insane type of rightwing pundit in the US would not be possible in that form here. And even if those pundits are just exaggerating as they claim, there is always the danger of people unstable enough to take that sort of thing literally. Just take the recent case in the US where an unstable person shot up a church congregation because he disagreed with their politics.

Even though Germany had one case in the 1960s where a popular tabloid kept on agitating against leftwing student activists until someone took that agitating too seriously and tried to kill a prominent activist. The activist was severely wounded but survived (though he died a couple of years later from the follow-up problems of his injuries), the attacker ended up in prison. Nothing was done against the offending newspaper, the editor who had approved the inflammatory articles (though he said he never wanted any violence) even had a political career later.

PS: I still don't get what a new prison in Leoben, Austria, has got to do with Cook County in Illinois, USA.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Audrey wrote:
Canada certainly does not throw people in jail just for saying something like "I don't think the holocaust happened."


Margaret wrote:

All the above is so uninformed it would be laughable if not so sad.



Really? So, you don't think anyone ever faced criminal charges in Canada for that? Now, I have to admit, I had not heard of the final Canadian Supreme Court ruling, but prior to that ruling, in April 2007 apparently:

http://historicalrevisionism.blogspot.com/2007/05/holocaust-revisionism-is-not-hate.html

Quote:
On August 27, Canada's Supreme Court dismissed charges against Ernst Zündel of "publishing false news" because he had circulated a reprint edition of a booklet that disputes the generally accepted Holocaust extermination story. The Court struck down as unconstitutional the law under which the German-Canadian publisher and commercial artist had been convicted. (For more on this, see the IHR Newsletter, Oct. 1992, pp. 1-3.)


If it wasn't "illegal" hard to have "charges dismissed" ... eh?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LizA



Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 140
Location: Austria, Europe

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess it all boils down to how you define freedom of speech, and freedom in general. Every state/society draws the line at different points. Canada, Austria, Germany (and many others) draw the line at hate speech. As Cora has said, in Germany and Austria, the Holocaust laws are tied up with our history. The thing is, we KNOW where this kind of thing can lead, because our countries have been there. However, it takes a lot to get dragged to court. I have the personal misfortune to know a few people who do not believe the Holocaust happened and non of them have been bothered by the governement. However, if they were to ralley others to their view in a very public manner (ie printing flyers, writing books, etc) they would be facing a legal problem.
Howver, may I point out that every country has laws that other countries find ridiculous? A friend of mine was arrested at a beach in the US for changing her swimming suit wrapped in her towel! They released her with a fine, but still. What kind of weirdness is that? Or not being allowed to consume alcohol in the street? Why the hell not? It's nobodies business what I drink unless I cause trouble for others! However, I cannot (and do not) argue on base of these laws that the entire US is not tolerant. I know it is not the case. Same goes for Canada, or Austria, or Germany.

By the way, I checked up on the Leoben prison. Only part of it is a prison, actually, it is also the seat of the court etc. there was some controversy about it, apparently, but it has died down mostly, esp. as non of the inmates is convicted of a "heavy" crime (noone stays longer than 18 months). I personally think that no matter how comfortable, a prison is still a prison. Never fun! But that's just me...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Donna Lea Simpson



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 249
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one can possibly, in any rational sense, argue that Ernst Zundel was jailed because he merely said, 'I don't think the Holocaust happened.' He published hate literature, and that is what got him arrested, then deported (he never actually became a Canadian citizen). Gosh, when I mentioned Zundel's name I had no idea that he really was the intended example being 'victimized' by our intolerance.

I repeat... you really can say 'I don't think the holocaust happened' in Canada and nothing will happen to you! Honest.

However... you cannot use our tolerance as a base upon which to build a hate empire, or recruit the vulnerable and warp their minds. 'Free speech', like every human right, carries with it a responsibility to use it wisely.

We not only tolerate the sharing of ideas, we encourage it. Americans do, too. I think that is one strength we share as nations. It doesn't come without hiccups or notable exceptions, but as democracies,we're working through it.
_________________
Visit my blog for the latest!
http://donnaleasimpson.wordpress.com

http://www.donnaleasimpson.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donna Lea Simpson wrote:
No one can possibly, in any rational sense, argue that Ernst Zundel was jailed because he merely said, 'I don't think the Holocaust happened.' He published hate literature, and that is what got him arrested, then deported (he never actually became a Canadian citizen). Gosh, when I mentioned Zundel's name I had no idea that he really was the intended example being 'victimized' by our intolerance.

I repeat... you really can say 'I don't think the holocaust happened' in Canada and nothing will happen to you! Honest.



I didn't dig deep ... Zundel happened to be the first case I hit and noted. His is not the only case I've heard of. But, yes, prior to the Canadian Supreme Court ruling, you could be arrested for saying that. Kindly remember, all this started because someone accused the United States of being the most intolerant country in the world. All I was doing was pointing out there are a lot of intolerant places in this world ... and Canada has it's own intolerances.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Margaret



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 878

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LisaW...
You are taking snippets of the matter out of context and trying to make them support your point. There is no way you'd be arrested in Canada for making that statement. And I don't have to Google that. It's absurd you are using this as an example of Canadian intolerance.

Quote:

Quote LisaW...All I was doing was pointing out there are a lot of intolerant places in this world...


I think I understand what you're saying. But I hardly think bashing other countries is the way to go.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LisaW



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret wrote:
LisaW...
You are taking snippets of the matter out of context and trying to make them support your point. There is no way you'd be arrested in Canada for making that statement. And I don't have to Google that. It's absurd you are using this as an example of Canadian intolerance.

Quote:

Quote LisaW...All I was doing was pointing out there are a lot of intolerant places in this world...


I think I understand what you're saying. But I hardly think bashing other countries is the way to go.



Margaret ...

Snippets or detailed listings, I made a point, was called on the point and I documented the point. Yes, prior to April 2007, you could be held criminally liable for making statements about the Holocaust being a myth. You could be charged in Canada if you were a Canadian citizen and made that statement in the US (IIRC, that was the first time I'd heard of the situation). Luckily, the Canadian Supreme Court was smart enough to find against the PCness and allow true "Freedom of Speech."

I wasn't bashing other countries. You are really, really reaching. The statement was made that "only in America ..." and I demonstrated there were a whole lot of other places that were intolerant about any number of things ... including Canada. For the most part I like Canada. But, I'm getting more than a little tired of the constant America Bashing that is now in vogue. Add to that the Christian bashing. The military bashing. For a bunch of people screaming about intolerance, there are a whole bunch of you out there who aren't very tolerant.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Margaret



Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 878

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well LisaW, we are just going to have to disagree on what you think you've proved. You are making huge leaps between making a statement and what Zundel did.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    AAR Forum Index -> The Wild Wild West Forum All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group