AAR
Click here for full forums index
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 
The Siren by Tiffany Reisz
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    AAR Forum Index -> Let's Talk Romance Novels Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I shouldn't weigh in until I finish but I'm taking a break and need a little vent! No qualms about the writing, though it comes across more as straight fiction in that you feel a distance from the characters, or maybe it's just that they're all so beyond something I can relate to? Anyhow...

Spoilers -




I'm at the point where Zach has just called Nora's book off because he found out that she's been selling her domme skills. I think he's being a jerk, her book should be considered on it's own merit and not lost because he found out something about her he didn't like.

Nora - if Christian Grey is fifty shades of f-ed up, she's 100! Her entire existence revolves around sex, sexual acts, sexual innuendo, sexual games, sexual jokes, etc. Her writing is bdsm erotica. She lives and breathes it and seems to have nothing else, not even a friend in which she's not trying to seduce or has been intimate with. Can a person be whole if their entire being revolves around only one thing? And not a healthy version at that, I'm sorry but seeing Soren's love in the bruises and welts he leaves on her body is so sad and pathetic that that's the only way she is able to experience it.

Soren - another shame on the Catholic priesthood. (I was brought up Catholic) He started grooming her as a young girl to be his sub and accept the pain even if he waited until she was 20. He brought a 15 year old boy to her bed for her to deflower to him in an effort to 'save his life' which is the biggest load of bull used to justify it. Though Nora didn't realize he was not 18 at the time when she finds out she later justifies it to herself that if not her it would have been someone else, some less experienced girl. Umm hello, that's who teenage boys should be having sex with anyway, not 33 year old women, heck even if they are 18 as she thought.

It reminds me of the role of Mrs. Robinson in the Fifty books, bringing an impressionable young adult into the lifestyle under the illusion and justification that they're 'saving' them. What they really are - sexual predators.

The S&M scenes were more like torture scenes, only the person being tortured enjoyed it. Just not for me, for the record I don't read serial killer books either and long ago stopped reading the In Death books because the details of the gruesome murder scenes were too much to stomach, I also do not read horror books. I am a bit faint of heart I fully confess!

I will see this through because I have to know how it ends but I'm considering some skimming now just to get it over with. I don't think I will be seeking out any more of her books. The only character I really liked was Wesley and I just want him away from Nora, Soren and that entire scene. If this book is able to redeem itself in anyway I hope it's by getting this kid into a healthy relationship.

Thanks for letting me vent and I certainly do not mean to offend anyone that loved the book, I can see how the writing and storyline can pull you in. It pulled me in even while it disturbed me. I guess for me this is like watching a horror flick, I'd never pick one out on my own but occasionally I'd walk in on my daughter watching one and I'd get involved and have to see how it ends, while hiding my eyes during the worst of it. haha

It generates strong feelings for sure so that in itself is a credit to the author.

ETA: Ok, finished, phew! That was pretty intense. So Nora 'flies' back to Soren and one of the first things he does it slaps her so hard across the face she tastes blood in the back of her throat, I guess she loved it, I just...no words.

Hope Wes gets a HEA sometime, he was the most genuine of them all and I can picture him growing into a fine man.

The big, bad, Soren - He states he's offered to leave the priesthood for Nora if she'd let him. Really? Why not man up and just do it, he's lying to his congregation by what he hides and broken vows. He's a farce.

Zach and Gracie - glad for their happy ending! Though disappointed it had to come out that he had sex with her when she was 18 and he was her teacher. That seems to be a running theme in this book, adults behaving in an irresponsible way sexually with teens.

Linda
_________________
"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Judyblueeyes



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Great Lakes

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda I love that you post such well thought out points, I am never that good.

If you are worried you would offend me, you don't know me but trust me it could never happen, I am easy going and I am more interested in peoples points of view than agreement. I think that is a small point of what I enjoyed about the story. It pushed my limits (such a BDSM statement) it really made me think about consenting adults, who are consenting adults etc etc. And I found I could look at my life and life in general and see areas that are similar.

Like when Nora compares BDSM to Rugby. Well, that made me think about me playing football in HS with my friends and there was nothing better, and I am sure the only reason I engaged, was to be tackled and thrown to the ground with one of them rapped around me. And I am sure it was why they played too. Pain and Pleasure wrapped around a football game. Different yes, but everything starts somewhere. So NO I would never want to be slapped and I don't understand caning or whipping, leaving welts etc, but I do understand that the degree is just different, the reason I enjoyed the football is the same. But I hadn't thought about that in decades until this story.

I so agree with you that Nora is 100 shades of F*cked up, and we don't get the explanation for it here, apparently this is what is coming in future books. And Soren's story too. Again, I put the whole priest issue aside when I came to the conclusion that it is fiction and did it matter what his public position was...and my answer was no...I have read stories where the guardian ends up with the heroine or when I was a teenager "Flowers in the Attic" where the brother and sister are together, so why would I let priest hang me up, it is fiction not a memoir any more than those other stories.

I think the IMO the story of Gracie and Zach is there because it is the foundation of his guilt that was destroying their marriage. I like that Nora helped him see that Gracie, even as a student, came to him for what she wanted. That he wasn't totally responsible for deflowering a young girl, that she can be responsible for her own sexuality. I liked that, in the same way Nora owns her sexuality. As women, and I am not a feminist, I think we are total to not be sexual or to pretend not to be sexual, that we are more attractive as innocents (like being slim, or blonde, or whatever is in fashion) and I like the message that we can want or desire and direct our "deflowering" or any other sexual exchange. So when I say I am not a feminist I mean, I like being treated nicely, open doors for me, give me your coat hubby if I look cold and was stupid enough not to bring one. But maybe it is time women can own their sexuality, like Ana in FSoG.

I don't need to compare the two books but one is clearly about BDSM and one is vanilla. One really pushes and challenges my perspective and opinions and moved my bars of what I thought was expectable or normal and one didn't push me at all.

I think the ending, without spoiling too much, shows how really noble Nora is, she knows what would drive Wes away and she does it. I am sure that is the only reason she came home the way she did, was to send Wes away. Otherwise, there was no point in mentioning her earlier promise to Wes and what Wes said he would do if she ever came home like that again. In the story I saw lots of things Nora did for others, that maybe cost her or damaged her. I think Linda you are right why doesn't Soren leave the priesthood for her or without her, I donít' know the answer to that, but I think he was going too and so Nora left him. In some of the free stuff on the website we learn about her time after she left Soren and that is what I base IMO on.

So in conclusion: roll: I agree with you that the story "generates strong feelings and that is in itself a credit to the author" and why I really enjoyed the writing. And why I so highly recommend it, I think Tiffany Reisz can write circles around almost any author. Such an unique story, not the same old same old in any way shape or form.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judyblueeyes wrote:
Linda I love that you post such well thought out points, I am never that good.

If you are worried you would offend me, you don't know me but trust me it could never happen, I am easy going and I am more interested in peoples points of view than agreement. I think that is a small point of what I enjoyed about the story. It pushed my limits (such a BDSM statement) it really made me think about consenting adults, who are consenting adults etc etc. And I found I could look at my life and life in general and see areas that are similar.


Thank you for your kind response! I know it can become touchy when a book that is beloved to a reader may not go over as well with another. Just let me say again that I am not saying any of this is a reflection on the writing, no question it is well written.

Quote:
Like when Nora compares BDSM to Rugby. Well, that made me think about me playing football in HS with my friends and there was nothing better, and I am sure the only reason I engaged, was to be tackled and thrown to the ground with one of them rapped around me. And I am sure it was why they played too. Pain and Pleasure wrapped around a football game. Different yes, but everything starts somewhere. So NO I would never want to be slapped and I don't understand caning or whipping, leaving welts etc, but I do understand that the degree is just different, the reason I enjoyed the football is the same. But I hadn't thought about that in decades until this story.


I'm not sure I'm quite on board with the comparison here but I do get the idea of different levels, degrees of pain being more pleasurable for one person than another. I think Nora may have said something along the lines of not really enjoying the pain but the act of succumbing to his will was the real pleasure. I'm paraphrasing here, I don't remember exactly. She is able to tolerate a lot for sure.

Quote:
I so agree with you that Nora is 100 shades of F*cked up, and we don't get the explanation for it here, apparently this is what is coming in future books. And Soren's story too. Again, I put the whole priest issue aside when I came to the conclusion that it is fiction and did it matter what his public position was...and my answer was no...I have read stories where the guardian ends up with the heroine or when I was a teenager "Flowers in the Attic" where the brother and sister are together, so why would I let priest hang me up, it is fiction not a memoir any more than those other stories.


I don't think I can put the priest issue aside because that's what he is and it's a very large part of his character. Yes it's fiction but still, it is how the author presents him to us. In order to go with the story I have to accept that and it does evoke feelings of revulsion in me when combined with his depravity. I don't mean depravity in that he enjoys giving pain to others (though the level of pain he delivers makes it questionable) but his lack of moral fiber with respect to the position he holds and the fact that he brought a 15 year old boy and virgin to Nora to deflower him and allow him to accept his true nature, thereby saving him. To me this is such a line of bull, it's like bringing a potential addict right to the needle. There you go, this is what you needed all along, don't you feel better now? To doctrine him into that world at 15 is despicable, imho.

Quote:
I think the IMO the story of Gracie and Zach is there because it is the foundation of his guilt that was destroying their marriage. I like that Nora helped him see that Gracie, even as a student, came to him for what she wanted. That he wasn't totally responsible for deflowering a young girl, that she can be responsible for her own sexuality. I liked that, in the same way Nora owns her sexuality.


I did like that Nora helped Zach see Grace in a different light but also couldn't help but feel she was also using it as a way to excuse her own actions in the past with regards to having sex with a young teen (possibly teens) and Soren's with her. Yes, Nora does own her sexuality but that's also all she seems to be, who is Nora without sex? I didn't see any aspect of her life at all that wasn't completely overtaken with sexual nature, not even a friendship.

Quote:
As women, and I am not a feminist, I think we are total to not be sexual or to pretend not to be sexual, that we are more attractive as innocents (like being slim, or blonde, or whatever is in fashion) and I like the message that we can want or desire and direct our "deflowering" or any other sexual exchange. So when I say I am not a feminist I mean, I like being treated nicely, open doors for me, give me your coat hubby if I look cold and was stupid enough not to bring one. But maybe it is time women can own their sexuality, like Ana in FSoG.


I'm pretty much on board with you there! Just with Nora I would have liked her to know herself outside of sexuality. It's fine to own it but that can't be all there is to her. With her it's so obsessive it's taken over every aspect of her life, an addiction that rules and leaves nothing else left. In that I see it as unhealthy, I would have liked to see a more rounded and balanced heroine, especially at her age and level of life experience.

Quote:
I don't need to compare the two books but one is clearly about BDSM and one is vanilla. One really pushes and challenges my perspective and opinions and moved my bars of what I thought was expectable or normal and one didn't push me at all.


I'm with you here!

Quote:
I think the ending, without spoiling too much, shows how really noble Nora is, she knows what would drive Wes away and she does it. I am sure that is the only reason she came home the way she did, was to send Wes away. Otherwise, there was no point in mentioning her earlier promise to Wes and what Wes said he would do if she ever came home like that again.


Noble, hmm, not sure I see that but she did do right by Wesley finally at the end so in a small way she redeemed herself there.

Quote:
In the story I saw lots of things Nora did for others, that maybe cost her or damaged her. I think Linda you are right why doesn't Soren leave the priesthood for her or without her, I donít' know the answer to that, but I think he was going too and so Nora left him. In some of the free stuff on the website we learn about her time after she left Soren and that is what I base IMO on.


Ah well I haven't read that so you are probably right in what you've seen. It's just that Soren does not strike me as the type to wait for someone else to tell him it's ok to do something. He should have just done it long ago, actually when he realized he couldn't hold true to his vows.

Quote:
So in conclusion: roll: I agree with you that the story "generates strong feelings and that is in itself a credit to the author" and why I really enjoyed the writing. And why I so highly recommend it, I think Tiffany Reisz can write circles around almost any author. Such an unique story, not the same old same old in any way shape or form.


Definitely unique and not the same old same old! I'm not sorry I read it at all. Smile

Linda
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Judyblueeyes



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Great Lakes

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda this is what I love, a good book discussion! And i was happy to see your last comment that you aren't sorry you read "The Siren" because I do feel I pushed you into reading it, which might of been bad behavior on my part Twisted Evil but sometimes bad feels so good.

I don't think I can put the priest issue aside because that's what he is and it's a very large part of his character. Yes it's fiction but still, it is how the author presents him to us. In order to go with the story I have to accept that and it does evoke feelings of revulsion in me when combined with his depravity. I don't mean depravity in that he enjoys giving pain to others (though the level of pain he delivers makes it questionable) but his lack of moral fiber with respect to the position he holds and the fact that he brought a 15 year old boy and virgin to Nora to deflower him and allow him to accept his true nature, thereby saving him. To me this is such a line of bull, it's like bringing a potential addict right to the needle. There you go, this is what you needed all along, don't you feel better now? To doctrine him into that world at 15 is despicable, imho.

I understand what you mean. I do find the level of pain uncomfortable, but came to terms with that by rationalizing that certain people are turned on by what they can endure and move through. Read as, Navy Seal training, triathlons, marathons, Les whatís his name or Bear whatís his name Man vs Wilds. So I except BDSM or edge play with that comparison. In my small world it might be engaging in a sexual act/position that my husband enjoys more than me. (sorry if TMI) But the big issue is Michael the 15 year old. I understand your comparison. My only thing that keeps me on the fence and not on your side is a couple of big issues IMO. Many places in the World today and not that long ago in this country a 15 year old wasnít off limits. Lets think about Elvis Presley and Priscilla who was 15 when her parents let Elvis bring her back from German to live at Graceland, I donít agree with their actions, but this country didnít miss a beat and kept on grabbing their chest and streaming for him. And Elvis wasnít the only one there was that other guy and his teenage cousin, I think she was 13 so it did cause him some issues, but maybe that was because he wasnít Elvis.

But I think Sorenís bigger point to Nora was that he wanted her to see she was reckless, he knew she wouldnít sleep with a minor, but he also knew she wouldnít ask or check and he wanted to teach her a lesson.
As for Sorenís bring Michael to her maybe he didnít have a problem with a 15 yr old boy having sex with a women and he rewarded him for not hurting himself. Do I agree with this, NO! but again it is a story and it makes sense to me in the frame work of the story. I know my brother was having intercourse with a neighbor that was much older than him at the same age and I am pretty sure he still to this day as a dad doesnít have any issue with the relationship. But in this case I am sure he would have double standards and would go ballistic if a guy was trying to get with his daughter at 15.



Quote:
Yes, Nora does own her sexuality but that's also all she seems to be, who is Nora without sex? I didn't see any aspect of her life at all that wasn't completely overtaken with sexual nature, not even a friendship.


I'm pretty much on board with you there! Just with Nora I would have liked her to know herself outside of sexuality. It's fine to own it but that can't be all there is to her. With her it's so obsessive it's taken over every aspect of her life, an addiction that rules and leaves nothing else left. In that I see it as unhealthy, I would have liked to see a more rounded and balanced heroine, especially at her age and level of life experience
.


I agree, I think her becoming an author and then her writing a book that is apparently a different story from her other best sellers is an attempt for Nora to be more to find herself. I think she does have friends, although not girl friends, unless Gracie became a friend. But she does have Wes, he is/was her friend although he had a huge crush/love/infatuation for her. I think Zach became a friend and I think Knightley is a friend and loves her. She also has Grif, but does she have girl friends no I donít think so, but that doesnít surprise me, her character would have a hard time finding women friends.


Noble, hmm, not sure I see that but she did do right by Wesley finally at the end so in a small way she redeemed herself there.

Yea, I am going to stay with noble. I think what she did for Zach was noble, and I donít think it was random. I think she knew he need to get to the bottom of his pain and guilt and I think he need to get some release from his pain. Did he need her to unlock his emotions? YES, I think he did. I think he had shut himself down so tight that without that happening he wouldnít of moved forward with Gracie or back to Gracie. I think if he hadnít of slept with Nora he might not of been willing to except Gracie having a relationship with that other guy after they separated.

On Tuesday they next book "The Angel" comes out and I will be out of town and I am thinking I will download and see where the ride takes me. I have read through almost everything on her website and just feel I need to see where these characters go.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judyblueeyes wrote:
Linda this is what I love, a good book discussion! And i was happy to see your last comment that you aren't sorry you read "The Siren" because I do feel I pushed you into reading it, which might of been bad behavior on my part Twisted Evil but sometimes bad feels so good.


Haha, no not sorry at all! It's not what I would normally choose and likely not something I would chose again in the near future but as a break from the routine it was interesting. A peek into the dark side so to speak, depravity and all. Although I may take issues with the character's actions I don't take issue with the writing.

Quote:
I understand what you mean. I do find the level of pain uncomfortable, but came to terms with that by rationalizing that certain people are turned on by what they can endure and move through. Read as, Navy Seal training, triathlons, marathons, Les whatís his name or Bear whatís his name Man vs Wilds.


I can get that, though I think those in the military (my husband is) push themselves to see what they're made of and because out in that environment the risk of experiencing it is very real and they have to learn to live their way through. So we're talking life and death here, not just a certain sort of sexuality. Though maybe for Nora and Soren I guess that's the only kind of sexuality they can enjoy. I want to know what would be left of Nora if you took away the sex, took away the giving and receiving of pain. Could she cope? Such is her level of dependence on this I question her strength, she doesn't know anything else. This is all she seems to have.

Since we're reaching for some seemingly unrelated examples, I would say to me it's similar to the thief that justifies their theft because the store overcharges or the person has enough money they can afford it. They twist the actions that they know in their mind is wrong into something that they can live with, this allows them to keep going as they are.

Quote:
So I except BDSM or edge play with that comparison. In my small world it might be engaging in a sexual act/position that my husband enjoys more than me. (sorry if TMI) But the big issue is Michael the 15 year old. I understand your comparison. My only thing that keeps me on the fence and not on your side is a couple of big issues IMO. Many places in the World today and not that long ago in this country a 15 year old wasnít off limits. Lets think about Elvis Presley and Priscilla who was 15 when her parents let Elvis bring her back from German to live at Graceland, I donít agree with their actions, but this country didnít miss a beat and kept on grabbing their chest and streaming for him. And Elvis wasnít the only one there was that other guy and his teenage cousin, I think she was 13 so it did cause him some issues, but maybe that was because he wasnít Elvis.


Well what Elvis did was wrong but he got away with it because he was a rock star, rich. Same with..what's his name, the guy that played the piano, Jerry Lee Lewis, though some would say that he ruined his career by his actions with her. Both were spoiled and used to getting what they wanted no matter if it went against convention or was morally right or wrong. This does not excuse the future actions of others. Neither were they meant to be community and religious role model as Soren is in the role of priest. A religious leader is placed in the highest level of trust and responsibility, Soren has no personal honor to stay in that position with his vows broken and what he hides, as a priest he is a fake and a phony. Eh, just rubs me the wrong way, I guess because I feel like the author is all the while justifying and excusing his actions. So going with what I would like to see from Nora mentioned above, from Soren I would like to see him own up to his own actions, not make excuses for them and then make it right, but the problem is I'm not so sure he believes he is in the wrong. I think his mind has it twisted.


Quote:
But I think Sorenís bigger point to Nora was that he wanted her to see she was reckless, he knew she wouldn'tít sleep with a minor, but he also knew she wouldít ask or check and he wanted to teach her a lesson.


Yes I think this is right, the boy is just a pawn here and Soren uses the fact that he's 'saving' him as an excuse to justify it. Again, twisted.

Quote:
As for Sorenís bring Michael to her maybe he didnít have a problem with a 15 yr old boy having sex with a women and he rewarded him for not hurting himself. Do I agree with this, NO! but again it is a story and it makes sense to me in the frame work of the story. I know my brother was having intercourse with a neighbor that was much older than him at the same age and I am pretty sure he still to this day as a dad doesn'tít have any issue with the relationship. But in this case I am sure he would have double standards and would go ballistic if a guy was trying to get with his daughter at 15.


I would go ballistic if it were my son or daughter at that age, no question. As adults we have far too much influence on the minds of children than many would like to believe and Soren indoctrinating Michael into this lifestyle turned my stomach. There is quite a bit I can go along with in fiction to just go with the flow of the story for sure but when it comes to using children sexually that's a blocking point for me and especially by someone in the role of priest. It's the ultimate betrayal of the trust that's placed into his position.

Quote:
I agree, I think her becoming an author and then her writing a book that is apparently a different story from her other best sellers is an attempt for Nora to be more to find herself.


But even here it's a book with the sexual relationship at it's core, the fact that one person cannot give up a certain type of sex to please another. I don't think Nora knows anything other than sex, perhaps because of Soren bringing her under his wing from the time she was a young age.

Quote:
I think she does have friends, although not girl friends, unless Gracie became a friend. But she does have Wes, he is/was her friend although he had a huge crush/love/infatuation for her. I think Zach became a friend and I think Knightley is a friend and loves her. She also has Grif, but does she have girl friends no I donít think so, but that doesnít surprise me, her character would have a hard time finding women friends.


But she doesn't have friends without equating them with sex in some way, even with Wes she flirted and teased him sexually all the time, tempted him. Is that really a friend? I think she enjoyed the attention from him and enjoyed tempting herself, testing her strength in resistance. The only time she really acted as a friend and not selfishly was when she sent him away. Knightly may be a friend but it's also implied there is a sexual history there and he is her 'pimp', for lack of a better word. So to me there isn't even a friend of Nora that does not bring sexuality into the mix.


Quote:
Yea, I am going to stay with noble. I think what she did for Zach was noble, and I donít think it was random. I think she knew he need to get to the bottom of his pain and guilt and I think he need to get some release from his pain. Did he need her to unlock his emotions? YES, I think he did. I think he had shut himself down so tight that without that happening he wouldn'tít of moved forward with Gracie or back to Gracie. I think if he hadn'tít of slept with Nora he might not of been willing to except Gracie having a relationship with that other guy after they separated.


I guess I'm just not seeing it as altruistic as you do, again she is getting something out of it here, she is getting sex for one, along with some pain which is her thing. It's no sacrifice for her, with her it's always about sex, sex mingled with pain, it's what she is. She's also absolving her own guilt with the young teen and Soren's with her, she frees him from guilt because that's what she tells herself to make it ok, so she can look in the mirror IMHO. She can give herself a pat on the back for helping Zach while getting exactly what she wants and needs along the awy. What I will give her credit for here is pointing out the POV of Grace, that he didn't' consider, that she feels guilt too. It was good for him to hear that and this is what I think sets him free.

Quote:
On Tuesday they next book "The Angel" comes out and I will be out of town and I am thinking I will download and see where the ride takes me. I have read through almost everything on her website and just feel I need to see where these characters go.


Enjoy and post about it! I will be interested to see if anything that I'm looking for as far as character development occurs. I'll be reading your thoughts on it for sure. Smile

Linda
_________________
"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Judyblueeyes



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Great Lakes

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darn I have to get into the car for the rest of the afternoon, but I couldn't turn off my computer without checking to see if you posted. I have thougths, but no time!!!!! I hear you and I think only on the degree and priority we give to things do we differ. Which makes me laugh because my husband and I would answer anyone that we are politically the same, but yet we are opposites on many things like pro-life/pro-choice, which doesn't make sense.

So like you I agree Nora is all sex based, but I kinda think that is what makes her interesting. Interesting for lack of time to think of a better word.

And like you I would have a huge problem with anyone having a relationship with my 15 year old son or daughter, but I am not sure every man feels that way about their sons, or rather about themselves, maybe they would for their sons. I am leaving room the fact in this regard men and women see things differently. and again this is a story, and I have read some stories that turned out to have child abuse in that I didn't agree with either, but I didn't judge the story by that aspect.

Oh one other random thought. YES, Jerry Lee Lewis!!!! And although those were the two famous stars that come to mind, that was an exceptable behavior in many areas during that time and many parts of the world it is exceptable to this day.

UPHS got to run
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judy - yeah I did kind of think to myself after I wrote that suggestion that it wouldn't be as interesting to read then, lmao!!

If only the author would have left the underage kids and the priest aspect out of it, there would have been less shock value but could have fallen still under the 'do no harm' they claim is the backbone of the S&M/D/s lifestyle. To me it felt as if the author was allowing her characters to justify their actions and excuse them away with the message that these adults know what's best, while they take their own pleasure from them sexually. Just did not buy into it as a reader.

Linda
_________________
"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Judyblueeyes



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Great Lakes

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So during my car ride w/hubby I polled him on his thoughts on 15 year old boy/33 yr old women. It was an interesting conversation because although he hasnít read either book, there is FSoGís Elena and The Sirenís Nora to compare. My husbandís brief thoughts were that teen boys donít mind having sex with any willing girl/women and a women is an even bigger turn on for them because she is older and wants them. NOT that a teen boys desire makes something right, but I am still on the fence about wrong. I consider myself to be a responsible adult and mother. But I do see a big difference between Noraís on night and Elenaís years of control of Christian. Interestingly the character of Christian felt that Elena saved him, which is what Soren reason for putting Michael with Nora.
Also in The Angel we learn a little more about Michael and how he was already experimenting with self asphyxiation, cutting himself and photos of men in bondage. So I am not sure, but basic interest in BDSM could be a fetish that you are just born with. I am not sure I have any fetishes and I was born heterosexual, but to paraphrase C.S. Lewis that in itís self is proof others are born the way they are. So did Soren save Michael, no Michael saved Michael by not doing something, but Soren gave him the goal and the reward.
Now on to Soren.Ē The Priest issueĒ. I am an Episcopalian (Church of England) which is about as close as you can come to Roman Catholic with the exception that at some point after the King of England severed ties with Rome the Priest in England got to marry. So if Soren was an Episcopalian Priest he could marry Eleanor (Nora). But he took vows as a Roman Catholic Priest and he is far from celibate. IMO this is part of what makes the story interesting and unique, we have a great romance (you really see it at the beginning of The Angel) between Soren and Nora, (Thornbirds was pretty popular and was about a priest falling for a women) Side note: the priest that was part of my wedding in my Episcopal Church and Baptized my daughter in his church later did run off with a women and I think lives in Florida. Back to Sorenís Character, I like him as a priest I think it makes a great story, interesting even. I think why the Soren Character is the yeng & yang and the fact that I find it believable that Nora loves him and he loves her is pretty amazing writing.
The underage part of Soren and Eleanor (Nora). We learn that he loved her at first sight but had very little to do with her for years. She had a bad family life apparently and he kept her in school and into college. And his character was a priest that apparently feel in love with her. I donít know any priest, but I do know a couple of men that have fallen in love with teenage girls (16 when they were 19) and been married for over 20 years. I the one guy that I was talking to over dinner said he would freak as the father of two teenage daughters, but he loved his wife and has a fine relationship with his in-laws. So I am not saying it is idea, but what I am saying is I didnít have to look far to find couples that would fall into similar relationship issues.
So all this makes me say that Tiffany Reisz built a really interesting, if sometime difficult and pushing my limits, story. With real themes that I can find in other romances, she just put a really unique combo of themes together to push our limits, which is so cool being as one of the themes is BDSM.
Sorry if this rambles I started it when I woke up at 3 this morning.

And I am enjoying The Angel. I like what I am learning about the characters and what is yet to be told, something about Soren's home life and Nora's parents. And there is a new couple they are reporters. Can't wait to see what unfolds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judyblueeyes wrote:
So during my car ride w/hubby I polled him on his thoughts on 15 year old boy/33 yr old women. It was an interesting conversation because although he hasnít read either book, there is FSoGís Elena and The Sirenís Nora to compare. My husbandís brief thoughts were that teen boys donít mind having sex with any willing girl/women and a women is an even bigger turn on for them because she is older and wants them. NOT that a teen boys desire makes something right, but I am still on the fence about wrong. I consider myself to be a responsible adult and mother. But I do see a big difference between Noraís on night and Elenaís years of control of Christian. Interestingly the character of Christian felt that Elena saved him, which is what Soren reason for putting Michael with Nora.


I'm sure there are 15 year old boys out there that wouldn't mind having sex with an older woman, however it's the 33 year old woman that should know better. However, in this instance Nora did not know, Soren did, so I can give her that reprieve *until* she justified it in her own mind after she found out. She brushed it off far too easily. That said, I do think she was mentally damaged by Soren's long term influence when she herself was a young teen so perhaps that's some reasoning (no excuses) to why she just can't see the enormity of it.

You mention Nora's one night with Michael vs Elena's years of control of Christian. Soren *GIVING!* Michael to her as a present seemed to be just the start of his 'grooming'. Just like Soren groomed Nora into his world of S&M he is taking Michael into it as well with the excuse that he's 'saving' him. I'm sorry but at 15 no i don't think he's doomed to a life of accepting and enjoying physical pain and this is not just playing around what they do. It's life altering, Nora cannot even have vanilla sex, there is no other way for her.

Regarding your comment on Christian, for a very long time he does believe Elena saved him until there's a moment of clarity when Ana shows him what else is out there and there's a part of him that thinks..what if? Finally he begins to really question what Elena did, it was a huge step of growth for him. For me as a reader it was like..Finally Christian you see and you see the selfishness in Elena's actions.

Make no mistake, Soren is a monster, however pretty. IMHO. Nora is damaged on the inside and I think that's affected her decision making but that's still no excuse. Like the child that was molested and goes on to molest other children, you can understand why they do what they do but that does not make it ok and it does not make them safe around children. While Soren may not be going after the very young he is going after young teens and bringing them into this lifestyle, as evidenced with Nora and Michael. And he does all this coming from a position of trust, wisdom and authority, a priest. It makes him all the more dangerous.

Quote:
Back to Sorenís Character, I like him as a priest I think it makes a great story, interesting even. I think why the Soren Character is the yeng & yang and the fact that I find it believable that Nora loves him and he loves her is pretty amazing writing.
The underage part of Soren and Eleanor (Nora). We learn that he loved her at first sight but had very little to do with her for years.


I think Soren as a priest makes his depravity all the more of an impact, so in that regard I suppose you can say it's more interesting. Although he didn't touch Nora until she was older the grooming for the position as his sexual submissive was there and she admits this herself. Him presenting Michael to Nora when he KNEW Michael was 15 is inexcusable. IMHO. Personally I was disturbed by the way the author allows them to excuse their actions but perhaps at some point that will change, surely there will be character growth.

Quote:
She had a bad family life apparently and he kept her in school and into college. And his character was a priest that apparently feel in love with her. I donít know any priest, but I do know a couple of men that have fallen in love with teenage girls (16 when they were 19) and been married for over 20 years. I the one guy that I was talking to over dinner said he would freak as the father of two teenage daughters, but he loved his wife and has a fine relationship with his in-laws. So I am not saying it is idea, but what I am saying is I didn'tít have to look far to find couples that would fall into similar relationship issues.


I wouldn't see 16 and 19 in the same light as I do 15 and 29 (I think it's a 13 year difference) for Soren and Nora. There's a big difference there in level of maturity and this is no loving sexual relationship Soren brought Nora into. He is a sadist and taught her to endure and appreciate the pain he gives. That's all kinds of f-ed up no matter how you spin it. The difference between Nora's 33 and Michael's 15 is even more so, 18 years and once again it is Soren that's putting this into motion, the head puppeteer in action.

Quote:
So all this makes me say that Tiffany Reisz built a really interesting, if sometime difficult and pushing my limits, story. With real themes that I can find in other romances, she just put a really unique combo of themes together to push our limits, which is so cool being as one of the themes is BDSM.
Sorry if this rambles I started it when I woke up at 3 this morning.


Well as a kudos to Harlequin I will say that at least they seem to be taking a step away from their comfort zone which before was mentioned that readers must agree with the choices characters make. I don't believe that at all, I think characters making choices that we wouldn't necessarily make does make for the most interesting and exciting reading. The Siren is well written and a unique read for sure. I just cannot change the fact that I see the characters as sexual predators and their actions are highly disturbing. Like mentioned before, reading a horror story may be thrilling but it's disturbing as well. The use of underage teens and a priest as a sadist makes it a chilling story at times and I would hate to think that for one minute the author actually believes any of it is justifiable. You can show me they are flawed characters for sure but just don't try to tell me that what they are doing is ok, via the storytelling, as in see how it all worked out for the best?

Judy - also please know that I am sure you are a great mom and I in no way would equate what you have enjoyed reading with something you would like to see played out in real life! I do get that from your responses if you are unsure how it's coming across, no worries there. Very Happy If we held our reading enjoyment to only those stories we would find perfectly acceptable in real life what a dull world it would be, IMHO.

I think I am going to have to read The Angel to see where all this goes. Smile

Linda
_________________
"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
willaful



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 1557

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me stress that I am not condoning adults sexually interacting with adolescents/teenagers, but I do kind of understand the place the book is coming from. Having a non-mainstream sexuality is extremely hard to live with in adolescence -- and I do believe that Michael was already a sub/masochist, not that he was lured into it in some way. Back when homosexuality was a dangerous secret, it was not uncommon for people who were gay teens to be really grateful to adults who approached them sexually. I think you see flexibility about age differences amongst kinky people, because for them acceptance and the ability to get what they need is key.

That does not make it okay to use kids for your own sexual gratification and I'm really not sure what an acceptable level of "assistance" would be in this case. Perhaps just telling Michael that he's not alone and that he'll be able to find others like him. I would hope a priest could find ways to help a troubled parishoner that aren't so self-serving and despicable. I wasn't all that uncomfortable with what happened with Michael in The Siren but my discomfort has increased a lot since I started reading The Angel and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to finish it.
_________________
"'Happily ever after, or even just together ever after, is not cheesy,' Wren said. 'It's the noblest, like, the most courageous thing two people can shoot for.'" -- Fangirl by Rainbow Rowell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Linda in sw va



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

willaful wrote:
Let me stress that I am not condoning adults sexually interacting with adolescents/teenagers, but I do kind of understand the place the book is coming from. Having a non-mainstream sexuality is extremely hard to live with in adolescence -- and I do believe that Michael was already a sub/masochist, not that he was lured into it in some way. Back when homosexuality was a dangerous secret, it was not uncommon for people who were gay teens to be really grateful to adults who approached them sexually. I think you see flexibility about age differences amongst kinky people, because for them acceptance and the ability to get what they need is key.


I think that while Michael may already be a masochist (he's tried to hurt himself before) that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to go hand in hand with sexuality. Michael was a virgin. I had a friend in high school that would cut herself, she said that feeling the pain of it helped her cope, but it wasn't healthy for her and she got help for it. I don't know how she is today. I shudder to think a priest coming along to her at 15 and telling her that he knows just the thing to 'save' her and introducing her into a sexual S&M lifestyle.

Quote:
That does not make it okay to use kids for your own sexual gratification and I'm really not sure what an acceptable level of "assistance" would be in this case. Perhaps just telling Michael that he's not alone and that he'll be able to find others like him. I would hope a priest could find ways to help a troubled parishoner that aren't so self-serving and despicable. I wasn't all that uncomfortable with what happened with Michael in The Siren but my discomfort has increased a lot since I started reading The Angel and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to finish it.


Agh, I just bought this and I'm feeling a lot of trepidation over reading it now!

Linda
_________________
"The Bookshop has a thousand books, all colors, hues and tinges, and every cover is a door that turns on magic hinges." ~ Nancy Byrd Turner


Last edited by Linda in sw va on Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Judyblueeyes



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Great Lakes

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

willaful wrote:
Let me stress that I am not condoning adults sexually interacting with adolescents/teenagers, but I do kind of understand the place the book is coming from. Having a non-mainstream sexuality is extremely hard to live with in adolescence -- and I do believe that Michael was already a sub/masochist, not that he was lured into it in some way. Back when homosexuality was a dangerous secret, it was not uncommon for people who were gay teens to be really grateful to adults who approached them sexually. I think you see flexibility about age differences amongst kinky people, because for them acceptance and the ability to get what they need is key.

That does not make it okay to use kids for your own sexual gratification and I'm really not sure what an acceptable level of "assistance" would be in this case. Perhaps just telling Michael that he's not alone and that he'll be able to find others like him. I would hope a priest could find ways to help a troubled parishoner that aren't so self-serving and despicable. I wasn't all that uncomfortable with what happened with Michael in The Siren but my discomfort has increased a lot since I started reading The Angel and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to finish it.


you wrote that so much better than any of my attempts. I think fetishes are born in us not groomed, but that is just IMO. And I gave the pass in The Siren to Soren for giving Michael to Nora, because I agree men see sex and age differently and it was a reward to Michael for not hurting himself and again not a problem if you are hung up on the age issue and it wasn't an on going relationship (like Elena in FSoG).
I was happy to learn at the beginning of The Angel that Nora and Michael hadn't even spoken for over a year to each other even though they saw each other every Sunday.

But I think I do have a problem now that I just left Michael in the Rolls with Knightly. I am hoping there isn't too much pushing this issue, I don't want to use my safe word and stop reading.

I made allownances for what is happening in the story for the summer by saying there is a point. Michael needs to learn to be save in his sexual needs and they know that better than I can even imagine.

and thanks Linda, I do worry it is hard to sometimes type out thoughts that would be much better talked over a coffee with legs pulled under on a comfy couch. And I certainly wouldn't give anyone a pass in reality, only in fiction do I give a lot more latitude to create a story.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jaime



Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 528

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judyblueeyes wrote:
willaful wrote:
Let me stress that I am not condoning adults sexually interacting with adolescents/teenagers, but I do kind of understand the place the book is coming from. Having a non-mainstream sexuality is extremely hard to live with in adolescence -- and I do believe that Michael was already a sub/masochist, not that he was lured into it in some way. Back when homosexuality was a dangerous secret, it was not uncommon for people who were gay teens to be really grateful to adults who approached them sexually. I think you see flexibility about age differences amongst kinky people, because for them acceptance and the ability to get what they need is key.

That does not make it okay to use kids for your own sexual gratification and I'm really not sure what an acceptable level of "assistance" would be in this case. Perhaps just telling Michael that he's not alone and that he'll be able to find others like him. I would hope a priest could find ways to help a troubled parishoner that aren't so self-serving and despicable. I wasn't all that uncomfortable with what happened with Michael in The Siren but my discomfort has increased a lot since I started reading The Angel and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to finish it.


you wrote that so much better than any of my attempts. I think fetishes are born in us not groomed, but that is just IMO. And I gave the pass in The Siren to Soren for giving Michael to Nora, because I agree men see sex and age differently and it was a reward to Michael for not hurting himself and again not a problem if you are hung up on the age issue and it wasn't an on going relationship (like Elena in FSoG).
I was happy to learn at the beginning of The Angel that Nora and Michael hadn't even spoken for over a year to each other even though they saw each other every Sunday.

But I think I do have a problem now that I just left Michael in the Rolls with Knightly. I am hoping there isn't too much pushing this issue, I don't want to use my safe word and stop reading.

I made allownances for what is happening in the story for the summer by saying there is a point. Michael needs to learn to be save in his sexual needs and they know that better than I can even imagine.

and thanks Linda, I do worry it is hard to sometimes type out thoughts that would be much better talked over a coffee with legs pulled under on a comfy couch. And I certainly wouldn't give anyone a pass in reality, only in fiction do I give a lot more latitude to create a story.


I agree that you can't force or seduce somebody into enjoying kinky sex, I think that's hardwired into you. But that doesn't mean I think adults like Nora for example ought to have sex with a boy of Michael's age in The Siren. A kinky 15 year old isn't any more mature than a non-kinky 15 year old.

Well, after reading the wonderfully written The Angel I am understanding Soren a lot better though he still frightens me. There is a thing he does to Nora in The Angel that made me cross my legs tightly and wincing in sympathy pains. OUCH!!!

It's clear to me now that Nora genuinely loves both Soren and Wesley and I don't see how that conflict can ever be resolved without misery and heartbreak for all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Judyblueeyes



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Great Lakes

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spoiler for THE ANGEL mainly for Linda, incase you decide to read it



















So happy nothing happened in the Rolls.
Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Judyblueeyes



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Great Lakes

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaime wrote:
Well, after reading the wonderfully written The Angel I am understanding Soren a lot better though he still frightens me. There is a thing he does to Nora in The Angel that made me cross my legs tightly and wincing in sympathy pains. OUCH!!!

It's clear to me now that Nora genuinely loves both Soren and Wesley and I don't see how that conflict can ever be resolved without misery and heartbreak for all.


I hope you are referring to an early chapter, because I too was like REALLY???? NO F*ing way.

I do see this as a love affair, not that I understand their relationship but I am totally Ok with that, I don't need to be shared to understand that might do something for someone else. And I think somethings are fantasy and have no need to be reality. So as fiction goes Tiffany weaves a story with characters that give you one huge bang for the buck.

another night alone while hubby has business dinner so it will be take out and The Angel in the hotel room almost perfect
. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    AAR Forum Index -> Let's Talk Romance Novels Forum All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 3 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group