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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Another shot at levity. A cake from a E.L. James signing, too cool! If there is one thing I never thought I'd see in my lifetime it's a cupcake with a flogger on top of it.  
Linda
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xina
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6628
Location: minneapolis
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| Sterling_95 wrote: |
Adding on something so that I'm actually contributing something about said implications, and so this doesn't turn into a catfight, how much of 50 Shades success would you say comes from EL James' background and the fanfic history of the trilogy? It certainly kicked up a kerfuffle and like someone said earlier, all publicity is good publicity for a new author. Did anyone start reading her original works pre-Masters/Shades, or just pick up after the buzz? Will this be the new thing for getting published - creating an online presence and then popularizing it into a book? I can name at least 3 other authors who did this: Cassandra Clare, Julie Powell and Justin Halpern (author of 'Sh!t my dad says.').
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If this is a catfight, it's a very polite one. I've seen much worse than this where you can almost hear the hissing.  I think we are doing pretty well.
As to when I started reading this author, I downloaded the first book on my e-book app on my ipad long ago. It was very inexpensive too, and I just let the book sit. I started reading it after all the hype started.
Sorry, I can't read through all these comments now. I'm on my way out right now....laters! (I've been waiting to say that)
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xina
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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Location: minneapolis
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Linda in sw va wrote: | Another shot at levity. A cake from a E.L. James signing, too cool! If there is one thing I never thought I'd see in my lifetime it's a cupcake with a flogger on top of it.
Linda |
LOL! Hilarious! This can be your Mother's Day cake Linda!
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| xina wrote: | | [LOL! Hilarious! This can be your Mother's Day cake Linda! |
No, it's too pretty to eat!
Linda
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mirole
Joined: 06 Aug 2010
Posts: 257
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: |
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I just read a piece on FSoG in the Metro paper on my way to work (original source is The Associated Press) that a lot of American libraries either refuse to order or pulling the book from the shelves.
A spokesman for Brevard County, Florida is cited saying, "It's semi-pornographic." [OMG, what would they say or do if they knew what other books we read, all Emma Holly's, BDSM, menages, etc., etc.]
The article says it's a "novel about bondage, wild sex and, yes, love". Yes, in this order. How upsetting is that! For me it's first and foremost is a story of love, and then of sex (as EL James said that's what people who fall in love do - they have lots of sex) and bondage is distant third, if not forth or fifth. Nobody mentions great humour in these books.
But most of all, why would they think that the grown-up women MUST NOT read what they like.
I just checked our Toronto Public Library: 249 copies of FSoG (a very big if not a record number for our library system) and 1689 holds. |
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Diana
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 1044
Location: Washington DC
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:48 am Post subject: |
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@sterling I have no problem with your disagreement with anything I've said but I really wish you'd stop spinning my intent into what you want it to be. If it's that important to you to win your point then I quit. The red ink is a bit over the top, though.
I saw that about the Florida library. What a can of worms they've opened! Where will they draw the line? I'm thinking about Henry Miller and his naughty language. And Anais Nin, Norman Mailer Brett Easton Ellis, and so many more.They could throw a really big book burning. Oh and Charles Darwin.
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xina
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
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Location: minneapolis
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| mirole wrote: | .
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But most of all, why would they think that the grown-up women MUST NOT read what they like.
I just checked our Toronto Public Library: 249 copies of FSoG (a very big if not a record number for our library system) and 1689 holds. |
I checked my county library system and it has 198 copies of Fifty Shades, with almost 2000 holds! That will take forever.
My library has a large romance section with almost every Emma Holly book...LOL. We have a great library system here.
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LikesBadBoys
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Flogger cake is AWESOME. I love gourmet/artistic cupcakes! I hope somewhere some book club served those while talking about the book.
| Quote: | | Reynard wrote Gaberiel's Inferno. It was Twilight fanfiction now its published. |
And this is precisely why I say not all fan fiction has an obvious connection to the original work. I read Gabriel's Inferno and didn't even know it was a Twilight fan fic, not one single inkling. It's very much rooted in Dante's Divine Comedy so anything else goes unnoticed.
And while I am talking about it, I'd think it would be really hard to ream Reynard based on content alone. It's obvious that the book required some serious research on Dante's works because the main character is a professor of literature (Dante specialist) and in not less than two scenes in the book, Reynard wrote talks (sort of like many lectures, but more informal) on some of Dante's themes. So yeah, it would be hard to call Reynard a lightweight hack.
Sterling, in answer to your question, I believe an online presence can give any author momentum, through fan fic or otherwise. I'm sure James was able to capitalize on the early feedback of Twi-hards. Do I think she's a bestseller and now likely producer of a film based on her books because she started off in the fan fic community and then published? Absolutely not. You and others have listed authors who have similiar controversial roots and none of them are in James' place. Her books took on a life of their own outside of the fan fic and romance community. I think that's why she may get even more criticism than others who have pulled to publish.
And that's my main point of contention. Even though we as romance readers have big voices and sound very loud when we speak to each other, we likely sound like Minnie Mouse everywhere else. Sure, we make a serious presence in terms of commerce because we consume a lot of books (romance is the most successful fiction category). But to think we can singlehandedly wreck an author's upward mobility, by virtue of snark, or catapult them to success, by virture of accolades, is very presumptuous. Since fan fiction can be for just about anything (books, movies, etc.), I'm sure that community can be something to contend with, but only if we assume that everyone in the fan fic community's interests are aligned. There are actually some posters who read fan fic, maybe even write it, who said they are not put off by James.
Anyway, yay for flogger cake! |
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Sterling_95
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Linda in sw va wrote: | I think you're harping too much on the jealousy issue, it's like beating a dead horse, yes we get it that you don't think there's a jealousy issue involved. Some of us have seen reviews, blogs or whatever where strokes of jealousy seemed quite strong. And for me yes one of these came from a blog that was written by a fellow fanfiction author and former friend of E. L. James. So yes I think there is jealousy involved in some of the negativity aimed at E.L. James. I think I have a right to express that opinion. Can we agree to disagree on the jealousy issue and move on?
Linda |
If I don't hear the jealous issue again in this thread, I won't bring it up again.Sound fair?
| xina wrote: | | If this is a catfight, it's a very polite one. I've seen much worse than this where you can almost hear the hissing. Smile I think we are doing pretty well. |
LOL, a kitten fight perhaps?
| Quote: | | @sterling I have no problem with your disagreement with anything I've said but I really wish you'd stop spinning my intent into what you want it to be. If it's that important to you to win your point then I quit. The red ink is a bit over the top, though. |
If the red bothers you, I took it out. And like I said before, if you had an alternative point that was missed, feel free to repost or re-state it. And honestly, I have no desire to start a fight. The only thing I want is for both sides to acknowledge that the other has a point. That's why I said that yes, jealousy was one of the factors.
| Quote: | | Sterling, in answer to your question, I believe an online presence can give any author momentum, through fan fic or otherwise. I'm sure James was able to capitalize on the early feedback of Twi-hards. Do I think she's a bestseller and now likely producer of a film based on her books because she started off in the fan fic community and then published? Absolutely not. You and others have listed authors who have similiar controversial roots and none of them are in James' place. Her books took on a life of their own outside of the fan fic and romance community. I think that's why she may get even more criticism than others who have pulled to publish. |
Sorry, did not mean to imply that EL James got where she is because of the fanfic community. Of course her work had to stand on its own as well. However, more goes into making a phenomenon than just a good story. There's always a perfect storm of societal factors and current trends that pushes a good work into a juggernaut, and that's what interests me about 50 Shades: why now and what is it that's struck the chord with so many people? (sorry, I'm probably sounding like your fellow academics)
| Quote: | | But to think we can singlehandedly wreck an author's upward mobility, by virtue of snark, or catapult them to success, by virture of accolades, is very presumptuous. |
Oh heck no. If online buzz was the thing that launched careers, then Luminosity* would be THE thing in Twilight fic, not 50 Shades. However, EL James definitely got her start there. Does anyone know the background of things and how she managed to get published and start the momentum?
* If anyone's looking for more popular Twlight fanfic, Luminosity is one of the big ones. It features a very different Bella, who's much brighter and self-aware (as well as sneakier and more manipulative) than the one in the Twilight books. Not my thing, but I'm not a trans-humanist. |
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4707
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| LikesBadBoys wrote: | And this is precisely why I say not all fan fiction has an obvious connection to the original work. I read Gabriel's Inferno and didn't even know it was a Twilight fan fic, not one single inkling. It's very much rooted in Dante's Divine Comedy so anything else goes unnoticed.
! |
I only ventured into fanfic after Fifty Shades and I was so surprised at how little most of it resembles the original work. Totally not what I was expecting. I haven't read Gabriel's Inferno but I've heard of it.
Linda
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If I don't hear the jealous issue again in this thread, I won't bring it up again.Sound fair? |
As fair as is long as I don't see something that screams jealousy, I shall not bring it up, lol. Seriously, I spoke more about jealousy in my conversation with you than I did in the 3 Fifty Shades threads put together, but I appreciate the olive branch anyway, if that was your intention.
Linda
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xina
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6628
Location: minneapolis
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Sterling_95 wrote: |
Sorry, did not mean to imply that EL James got where she is because of the fanfic community. Of course her work had to stand on its own as well. However, more goes into making a phenomenon than just a good story. There's always a perfect storm of societal factors and current trends that pushes a good work into a juggernaut, and that's what interests me about 50 Shades: why now and what is it that's struck the chord with so many people? (sorry, I'm probably sounding like your fellow academics)
. |
I can't remember where I read this, and I wish I would have marked it, because the article was very interesting about how every 20 years or so, along comes an erotic novel that EVERYONE is reading. The list of books...I'm sure I forgot some, but they were Fanny Hill, Delta Of Venus, Lolita, The Happy Hooker, The Story of O, Lady Chatterly's Lover, Fear Of Flying and Tropic Of Cancer. Fifty Shades of Grey is now included in that list. So yes, this is a trend. A huge one and this book is in really great company, even though none of these books were considered great literature. Who knows how it starts, but it builds up steam and there it is. Bigger than anyone can topple no matter how harsh the reviews because there are more that love the book(s) than hate them. Funny, but none of these books listed were ever considered romance novels, and maybe that is a clue. Fifty Shades wasn't written through a formula. And heck...I think the cover had a lot to do with it.
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Linda in sw va
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4707
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| xina wrote: | | [I can't remember where I read this, and I wish I would have marked it, because the article was very interesting about how every 20 years or so, along comes an erotic novel that EVERYONE is reading. The list of books...I'm sure I forgot some, but they were Fanny Hill, Delta Of Venus, Lolita, The Happy Hooker, The Story of O, Lady Chatterly's Lover, Fear Of Flying and Tropic Of Cancer. Fifty Shades of Grey is now included in that list. So yes, this is a trend. A huge one and this book is in really great company, even though none of these books were considered great literature. Who knows how it starts, but it builds up steam and there it is. Bigger than anyone can topple no matter how harsh the reviews because there are more that love the book(s) than hate them. Funny, but none of these books listed were ever considered romance novels, and maybe that is a clue. Fifty Shades wasn't written through a formula. And heck...I think the cover had a lot to do with it. |
Xina, I think I read this article too or one similar, and several of those were banned at the time from various libraries as well. They also said that a book being banned usually ends up being good for the author because it increases popularity, lol
About the libraries though, I have to wonder if they also stock romance novels and are they aware of what lurks between the covers?
Linda
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Sterling_95
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Linda in sw va wrote: |
As fair as is long as I don't see something that screams jealousy, I shall not bring it up, lol. Seriously, I spoke more about jealousy in my conversation with you than I did in the 3 Fifty Shades threads put together, but I appreciate the olive branch anyway, if that was your intention. |
That was the intent, yes If the previous olive branch looks a bit dusty, here's a fresh new one. (I was going to say "spanking new, but given the book under discussion, that has unfortunate implications!)
| xina wrote: | | I can't remember where I read this, and I wish I would have marked it, because the article was very interesting about how every 20 years or so, along comes an erotic novel that EVERYONE is reading. The list of books...I'm sure I forgot some, but they were Fanny Hill, Delta Of Venus, Lolita, The Happy Hooker, The Story of O, Lady Chatterly's Lover, Fear Of Flying and Tropic Of Cancer. Fifty Shades of Grey is now included in that list. So yes, this is a trend. A huge one and this book is in really great company, even though none of these books were considered great literature. Who knows how it starts, but it builds up steam and there it is. Bigger than anyone can topple no matter how harsh the reviews because there are more that love the book(s) than hate them. Funny, but none of these books listed were ever considered romance novels, and maybe that is a clue. Fifty Shades wasn't written through a formula. And heck...I think the cover had a lot to do with it. |
That does indeed sound fascinating and I wish that I'd read the article. Lady Chatterly's Lover is probably the closest to a love story. The Kinsey Report on Sexual Behavior - male and female - were also surprise bestsellers, especially for a rather dry scientific report.
Speaking as someone who's read a fair amount of fanfic, fanfic usually falls into 1 of 4 categories: the fix-it/what if; the alternative universe epic; the reflection piece and the smut piece. Smut pieces are exactly what they say on the label and there are certain themes that recur so often that they have their abbreviations. EL James managed to hit practically every single major smut piece theme except for slash. Looking at 50 Shades, she's got the First Time, the Non-Consensual, the BDSM, the underage encounter, and was there a threesome in there as well? She took all those and managed to turn it into a fix-it, with a sprinkling of alternative universe, only instead of being a standard: "what if Bella had chosen Jacob" or "what if Bella were the vampire and Edward the human," her theme was: "What if Bella and Edward were both human and got to bang like a screen door in a hurricane?"
It's actually a remarkably clever device because while it's not highly intellectual like the other Twilight fic referenced, it successfully ties in some of the most appealing aspects of Twilight (the single target monogamy, whirlwind romance of the inexperienced, unworldly heroine with the incredibly rich, handsome tortured hero who's obsessed with her) with the most popular parts of fanfic (lots of creative sex and tying the Twilight universe to our own with things such as e-mail conversations) |
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xina
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6628
Location: minneapolis
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Sterling_95 wrote: |
That does indeed sound fascinating and I wish that I'd read the article. Lady Chatterly's Lover is probably the closest to a love story. The Kinsey Report on Sexual Behavior - male and female - were also surprise bestsellers, especially for a rather dry scientific report.
) |
Long ago, when I first started reading romance novels, and posting on message boards, I was a regular (long defunct, I am sure) on a romance message board, that wasn't AAR *shock* . I tried to pass off Lady Chatterly's Lover as a romance novel, and no one on the board would have it. I had read it back in my 20's, along with John Thomas and Lady Jane..which I happen to think is sexier. So, this novel must have made a big huge impact in 1928. I do happen to think it is a nice love story, and pretty much follows the pattern of a romance novel today.
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