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Accentuate the negative
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ladynaava

Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 938
Location: California

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject:

I can see the pros and cons of having an author not listen to fans. I can see not wanting to change your vision, but at the same time sometimes authors do go off the grid or make mistakes and feedback could be important if the author is interested in keeping that particular fanbase to know what readers don't like. I like the idea that a writer would respond to a reader, because sometimes an author writes something and intends it to be one way, when, in fact, it reads differently to reader.

xina

Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6630
Location: minneapolis

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:35 pm Post subject:

Sandy AAR wrote:

Sad to say I think the days when authors were dictated by their own hearts are long gone these days. Hence the proliferation of All Regency All the Time and Duke books. I know personally a lot of authors writing both who are heartily sick of doing so.

Yes, there certainly is a glut. Even worse than the paranormal glut 5 or so years ago. I was very sick of that, not so much yet with Regency settings, but I'm getting there. In that, I can understand why some romance authors change genres and are more free to write their heart. I guess if you can still make a living at it, it might be good for the soul.
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xina

Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6630
Location: minneapolis

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:37 pm Post subject:

Linda in sw va wrote:

I also enjoyed seeing Diana Gabaldon answer her critical letters in The Outlandish Companion, there is another author that is not going to be esily swayed by one person or another's opnion and believes in what she's writing. Take it or leave it. I really feel that it is this factor that makes her books stand out from the crowd and such a success.

Linda

Yes, Gabaldon probably has more freedom to write what she wants. Good for her.
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Elizabeth Rolls

Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1027
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:50 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I like the idea that a writer would respond to a reader, because sometimes an author writes something and intends it to be one way, when, in fact, it reads differently to reader.

WHICH reader would you suggest the author ought to listen to, Ladynaava?

Elizabeth

ladynaava

Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 938
Location: California

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:52 pm Post subject:

Elizabeth Rolls wrote:

Quote:

I like the idea that a writer would respond to a reader, because sometimes an author writes something and intends it to be one way, when, in fact, it reads differently to reader.

WHICH reader would you suggest the author ought to listen to, Ladynaava?

Elizabeth

It depends. If the author notices a trend in what readers are saying about his/her work then perhaps the readership as a collective is who she might consider listening to.

Or perhaps if a reader brings to mind something the author may have not considered or if the writer finds the reader's opinion resonates with him/her, then perhaps he/she might consider listening to that person.

xina

Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6630
Location: minneapolis

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:16 pm Post subject:

Eliza wrote:

Wow. What a good analogy. Smile

Agree.
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xina

Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 6630
Location: minneapolis

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject:

Yulie wrote:

There's a readership for different types of books and I seriously doubt that complaining on AAR will dissuade an author from writing something that sells.

Or on any other forum.
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desiderata

Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 226

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:04 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Seeing as how this thread has been ongoing: every few months there's a thread here about how the AAR forums are not active enough/sufficiently/positive/offer much variety in terms of topics. None of these seem to have any long term effect. I'm all for venting, but wouldn't it be more productive to try and change the tone by starting new threads or commenting about the topics people would like to see more of?

One would think ... . On the other hand, this thread has certainly been lively. I tend to favor letting people say what they want, whether it be positive or negative. If I'm not interested in what they have to say I skim or skip their posts. I have a limited amount of time to spend on this board, so I focus on what interests me. Maybe that's why I really haven't noticed the supposed proliferation of negativity.

Elizabeth Rolls

Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1027
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject:

ladynaava wrote:

Elizabeth Rolls wrote:

Quote:

I like the idea that a writer would respond to a reader, because sometimes an author writes something and intends it to be one way, when, in fact, it reads differently to reader.

WHICH reader would you suggest the author ought to listen to, Ladynaava?

Elizabeth

Okay. Let's take a really controversial book - Gaffney's To Have and To Hold. There is definitely a trend among those who hate this book; they loathe Sebastian. Should Gaffney listen to those readers? Or to the readers who loved the book and could believe Sebastian's redemption?

I can get behind what you're saying about a reader's opinion truly resonating with the writer, but I think there is a very real danger of authors becoming TOO sensitive to negative opinion and perhaps subconsciously avoiding anything likely to offend or upset. At which point readers complain about same old, same old.

Sometimes reader opinion is valuable in this regard. Sometimes it isn't. I am always stunned by the occasional post here from aspiring writers asking for advice from readers on what to write. I tend to tell them to go away and write a book THEY want to write and worry about a readership later. Smile

Elizabeth

ladynaava

Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 938
Location: California

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:46 am Post subject:

Elizabeth Rolls wrote:

ladynaava wrote:

Elizabeth Rolls wrote:

Quote:

I like the idea that a writer would respond to a reader, because sometimes an author writes something and intends it to be one way, when, in fact, it reads differently to reader.

WHICH reader would you suggest the author ought to listen to, Ladynaava?

Elizabeth

Elizabeth

It depends for me on what the writer's intent was in writing a character. Did she intend him to be unlikeable and for his redemption unbelievable If so, then the fact that the majority readers don't like him, means she wrote him effectively. However, if she meant him to be romantic and kind-hearted soul (I haven't read the book, so this is just a general comment) then the feedback that people hated the character and thought he was a jerk might mean she'd have to recalibrate a little or tone him down if there was a sequel to get her original character concept across.

An example of what I'm saying is in one of Laurell Hamilton's early books, there was a scene where Anita is raped by one of her latest romantic interests. Fans were shocked and surpirsed The author insisted she hadn't intended it to be a rape, and rewrote the scene. Thus in this case, feedback from fans was helpful in clearing up a misconception the author insisted wasn't the intent in the scene.

I think your advice for new writers is good. I am sure it is very difficult enough without trying to please everyone, ultimately the only person who needs to like the book is the writer.

Last edited by ladynaava on Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:01 am; edited 1 time in total

CharlotteJ

Joined: 30 Jul 2010
Posts: 75

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:47 am Post subject:

Yulie wrote:

Why shouldn't we complain if we don't like a theme or a trope? Why is it wrong to say that there are some things we're not interested in buying and reading?

I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Writing is a very isolated profession. And sometimes authors are too close to their work to be objective about their books.

So if you're an author and your sales are dropping but friends and family say 'oh, we love all your books' [which they often do because they don't want to hurt your feelings] and your editor has 16,000 other authors to worry about so she's got no time to reread all your books to find out what's wrong....wouldn't you, as a writer, welcome reader's opinions about it? Because maybe you're so caught up in writing that you can't see having 160 secondary characters in all your books is weakening the story you're trying to tell.

Linda in sw va

Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:16 am Post subject:

ladynaava wrote:

Elizabeth Rolls wrote:

ladynaava wrote:

Elizabeth Rolls wrote:

Quote:

I like the idea that a writer would respond to a reader, because sometimes an author writes something and intends it to be one way, when, in fact, it reads differently to reader.

WHICH reader would you suggest the author ought to listen to, Ladynaava?

Elizabeth

Elizabeth

It depends for me on what the writer's intent was in writing a character. Did she intend him to be unlikeable and for his redemption unbelievable If so, then the fact that the majority readers don't like him, means she wrote him effectively. However, if she meant him to be romantic and kind-hearted soul (I haven't read the book, so this is just a general comment) then the feedback that people hated the character and thought he was a jerk might mean she'd have to recalibrate a little or tone him down if there was a sequel to get her original character concept across.

An example of what I'm saying is in one of Laurell Hamilton's early books, there was a scene where Anita is raped by one of her latest romantic interests. Fans were shocked and surprised The author insisted she hadn't intended it to be a rape, and rewrote the scene. Thus in this case, feedback from fans was helpful in clearing up a misconception the author insisted wasn't the intent in the scene.

I think your advice for new writers is good. I am sure it is very difficult enough without trying to please everyone, ultimately the only person who needs to like the book is the writer.

Hmmm I wonder if that's where LKH went wrong, once she rewrote a scene because of reader feedback it opened the door for expectations of the same down the road. During LKH's heyday of controversy there was an entitlement attitude from many of the readers who expected their criticisms to fall on open ears and changes to be made and boy were they ticked when it didn't happen.

The problem with listening to 'packs' of readers that complain is that it's often a product of the environment in which they're posting. There have been times I've noticed a new fan come into a discussion so excited to talk about their favorite book/series, they walk into a succession of complaints and they'll post something like - I never thought of it that way. Next thing you know two months down the line they're leading the call for changes. I think positive or negative that we can kind of get sucked into what we're surrounded with.

Linda
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Linda in sw va

Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 4708

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:20 am Post subject:

Elizabeth Rolls wrote:

[I can get behind what you're saying about a reader's opinion truly resonating with the writer, but I think there is a very real danger of authors becoming TOO sensitive to negative opinion and perhaps subconsciously avoiding anything likely to offend or upset. At which point readers complain about same old, same old.

Yes, especially this!

And then there's the side of it where they are so sensitive to some loud and negative feedback that they can't write at all, look at what happened to Lisa Valdez, though it seems she got past it. You really have to have thick skin I am sure.

Linda
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Eliza

Joined: 21 Aug 2011
Posts: 743

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:21 am Post subject:

CharlotteJ wrote:

Yulie wrote:

Why shouldn't we complain if we don't like a theme or a trope? Why is it wrong to say that there are some things we're not interested in buying and reading?

I think this image has it completely backwards IMO. A writer indeed needs to have time alone if she's to get anything accomplished, but my experience as an editor was that authors got all too many opinions before it was all over. And in addition to however many people she had to deal with at the publisher (you'd be really amazed-- other than maybe a few really big name authors who may or may not be left a little more alone), have you read authors' acknowledgements, especially those who seek out and belong to groups who read and critique each other's work? Trust me, a dearth of advice and opinions is rarely if ever the case. I not only admire many an author's talent, but also their sheer stamina for the whole process.

Eliza

Joined: 21 Aug 2011
Posts: 743

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:03 am Post subject:

Linda in sw va wrote:

... There have been times I've noticed a new fan come into a discussion so excited to talk about their favorite book/series, they walk into a succession of complaints and they'll post something like - I never thought of it that way. Next thing you know two months down the line they're leading the call for changes. I think positive or negative that we can kind of get sucked into what we're surrounded with. Linda

On the off chance chance you want to know where I came from, it was from 10-12 hour publishing days ( or worse :/ ) which was one of critiquing and tweeking all the time. And I didn't even have to deal with all the non-writers-reader feedback to the authors telling them what they should be doing.

So, while I did come here excited, as you correctly said, I suppose I was hoping to share a love of books with others and to see where they thought authors hit the high notes, so to say, for a lovely change. My past experience should have taught me better, I see now.

Does anyone know of any sites that do tend to focus on authors' "high notes" that aren't just fangirl sites? Probably not, right?

P.S. I'm not against people's seeming need to critique; it's just that I came from a background from where it was done constructively--or that was at least the goal and the attempt anyway. Smile

Only the authors I worked with could tell you how well I succeeded--or not. Smile

Plus I need the change, as I already said, so now I'll just scan for more upbeat posts.

Last edited by Eliza on Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:29 am; edited 4 times in total

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